Dream a Little Deeper

20 – The Fox and the Hound

Talk Film Society — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 22:47:34 +0000

For what is the final Xerox era Disney film, Alex takes a look at the declining state of Disney in popular perception overall, not just for animation. Disney scrambles to recover, and makes a bunch of attempts to return to form and save costs. Alex and Terra clown on how bad the opening of this movie is, while offering slight praise at how even the good parts of the film are middling at best. Terra complains about the visual fidelity of the Disney+ version of the film. All of our guests talk about how sad the movie is and how that disincentives watching it. Alex doesn’t care about the Todd/Copper relationship, while Terra brings a queer reading to their pairing. Terra highlights some weirdness surrounding the film’s depiction of parenting and teaching younger generations, which our guest Jenna expands on with an exploration on Big Mama as a black stereotype. Alex finds Widow Tweed fairly well rounded and adjusted. We end with updated rankings of the movies so far and Terra nervously outlines their research process.

Originally recorded March 12th, 2022.

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19 – The Rescuers

Marcelo J. Pico — Wed, 24 Aug 2022 23:36:11 +0000

The second movie Disney released in 1977, Alex uses the history section to focus on the company’s wider changes and the way this sets up the management transition that precedes the 90s renaissance. Production of The Rescuers is especially tense as the old guard animators and new hires clash over teaching styles and production decisions, which sets the stage for what happens around the release and development of The Black Cauldron (Terra will get into it later). Terra is put off by the visual stereotyping of the mice in the Mouse UN, Alex loves the cold open at the start of the movie, and Terra sees Don Bluth’s fingerprints all over the place. Alex and Terra disagree over if we can hold the quality of the source material against the film. Alex unpacks how the movie treats Bianca and what this says about the film’s attitude towards women. Speaking of women, Terra likes Medusa, surprise surprise, and articulates why she’s better than Cruella. Alex has quibbles with some voice acting choices, and the bayou itself is a very scary place. Don’t go into strange bayous, kids. Swamps and bogs and bayous are dangerous.

Originally recorded February 26th, 2022.

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18 – The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh

Talk Film Society — Wed, 17 Aug 2022 20:01:23 +0000

Disney released two movies in 1977, so Alex focuses on animation department politics and Winnie the Pooh facts in this episode, and saves wider company stuff for the next one, because god forbid we have an episode with a light history section in it. While this episode features multiple guests, Elise McGouran has so much to say about this movie we should have just recorded the discussion with her, that’s how much Alex has to edit her in. Much like with Sleeping Beauty, Terra and Alex cover so much ground that this would be far too long an episode description. They do spend a lot of time on adaptational changes, metatextual gags and narrative, and take a divergence into discussing sequences that are eerily reminiscent of military propaganda within Disney’s secret fifth package film.

Originally recorded February 6th, 2022.

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17 – Robin Hood

Talk Film Society — Wed, 10 Aug 2022 22:54:34 +0000

Yes, we talk about furries. Terra also talks a lot today. These points are unrelated.

This time, ROY Disney dies. Before he died though, he oversaw the completion of Walt Disney World. This went, uh…well, it went. This, coupled with the energy crisis and shuffle of leadership, sends the company further into the chaos that Walt’s death created. Needless to say, this affects the production of Robin Hood. It’d be great if these animators could catch a break at any point, huh? Anyways, Terra posits the fondness for this movie is influenced by nostalgia. Our guests argue that the fun and joy of the movie is infectious, which makes the tone shift at the end really hit. Terra thinks the movie feels made for TV in multiple ways, Alex thinks the focus is too much on people who aren’t Robin Hood, and they both discuss why the children characters are better in this than the Aristocat children. Terra talks about feudal economic hierarchies. The Sheriff of Nottingham is the most despicable villain in the whole film, King Richard has his hands washed of blame for the Crusades, and every one of Robin Hood’s actions are justified by Prince John and Sir Hiss being war criminals and narcissistic monsters. Alex complains about the lack of stakes in the recent run of films but praises the lightness this creates, and Terra argues there really should be a cultural sensitivity warning at the start. Terra relishes the amount of gender present in Robin and Little John. Our hosts also dig into the finer points of actors who only have one voice that they use and why some of them are good and some of them aren’t. Terra has reached their limit on the fake Disney deaths. Like seriously, stop it. No one buys this. Please stop it.

Originally recorded Jan 22nd, 2022.

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16 – The Aristocats

Talk Film Society — Thu, 04 Aug 2022 01:15:33 +0000

The corporate structure of Disney falls into disarray after Walt dies, and the company finds itself in creative paralysis trying to stay true to the “What Would Walt Do” mantra. This, naturally, involves focusing on the parks more than actual movies, which means Alex decides the most prudent thing to do is talk to her dad about accounting and finances for longer than you would expect. Some of our guests sing the praises of The Aristocats from a nostalgic, personal perspective. Terra and Alex, however, are significantly less enthusiastic about having watched this film. They balk at the French-ness of the French setting, comparing the film to 101 Dalmatians in connection to the setting and structure. Alex is annoyed by some characters, namely Thomas O’Malley, who cannot pick a lane in terms of what model of masculinity he wants to follow. Terra takes issue with the Dutchess part of the relationship and how she regards Thomas. Terra fully despises the children, but Alex has a more nuanced read on their depiction. Terra fully adores most of the incidental animal side characters, except for the alley cats for, ya know, REASONS, and all of our guests have similar issues with those characters. Alex waits until the very end of the pod to bring up Edgar, his whole situation, and the class implications therein. Terra and Alex have opinions on Edgar that may be hot or may be ice cold, depends how y’all react to this episode. Tweet us and leave iTunes reviews please, we need to know what the case is.

Originally recorded Jan 15th, 2022

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15 – The Jungle Book

Talk Film Society — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 22:28:38 +0000

Walt dies in this one, so the history section is long and complicated because Walt was extremely petty and couldn’t help screwing people over (both family and employees), even until his final breath. Walt’s brother wasn’t much better, he just decided to commit tax fraud primarily. Alex and Terra discuss if tickets sold or money made is the best way to judge the popularity of movies. Terra gives a very brief overview of Rudyard Kipling, one of our guests asks if there are wolves in India, and Alex remarks upon the obvious whiteness of all the voice actors and explains imperialism. Our hosts welcome the return of their dear friend, the cultural content warning, and dig into what that could POSSIBLY be in reference to throughout this movie set in the jungles of India. Terra doesn’t necessarily ship Baloo and Bagheera, they just are getting major divorced dad vibes from this relationship. Our hosts argue about the ending and if it makes any logical sense at all (it doesn’t, Terra is correct, don’t listen to Alex). Terra praises Baloo’s character animation, then Alex says she thinks the movie looks good, a statement that catches Terra off guard and prompts a discussion of the ways this movie could look even better. Terra praises Shere Khan’s vibes and Alex highlights how little of a threat he actually is, which undercuts the stakes of the film writ large. Ultimately, The Beatles would have made this movie better if they were here.

Originally recorded Jan 2022.

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14 – The Sword in the Stone

Marcelo J. Pico — Wed, 20 Jul 2022 22:47:35 +0000

This week, Alex stresses Walt’s disinterest in animation and the resultant corporate changes surrounding the production of The Sword in the Stone, including the beginnings of intergenerational animator drama. Only one of our interview guests had actually seen Sword in the Stone, so the bulk of the work falls to Terra and Alex to discuss how mid this whole movie is. Terra compares this to the package films, has their faith in the storybook opening broken, and nitpicks historical accuracy. Alex thinks Merlin is a bad teacher, highlights the nonsensical depiction of the monarchy throughout the film, and calls this a “coffee shop AU King Arthur fan fic.” Our hosts praise Archimedes as the best part of the film, Terra can’t help but bring up Fantasia, and squirrels do be horny in this movie. Like, honestly, it’s real weird; what were they thinking putting this in the movie????

Originally recorded October 30th, 2021.

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13 – One Hundred and One Dalmatians

Talk Film Society — Wed, 13 Jul 2022 21:45:34 +0000

To start off this first real episode back, Alex makes the rather bold assumption that we would post this before a full year had passed between episodes (oops) before digging into the company-wide changes and production issues surrounding 101 Dalmatians, including the advent of Xerox animation. Alex also examines the heteronormative attitudes baked into the film, which feeds into a very critical discussion of the film’s understanding of economics and class (this devolves into a very long Jane Austen tangent that’s all Terra’s fault). Alex and our guests delve into what really makes Cruella work as a villain or possibly a feminist icon, which leads Terra and Alex into a debate about the role of women in the movie. Terra is terrible at basic math.

Originally recorded October 9th, 2021.

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Bonus – Q&A

Talk Film Society — Thu, 07 Jul 2022 01:14:28 +0000

Oh, hey! Didn’t see you come in! Been quite the month off huh? Ok, so obviously Alex and Terra have been gone for longer than a month, but they have certainly been busy!!! In an effort to re-familiarize themselves with the process of making a podcast (a thing that no one should ever do), they take the time to answer some listener-submitted questions about their personal lives, movies in general, and address larger questions about Disney’s output and existence.

Originally recorded October 2nd, 2021.

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12 – Sleeping Beauty

Talk Film Society — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 18:05:10 +0000

This week, Alex and Harrison tackle 1959’s Sleeping Beauty. Alex once again provides a history of the struggle over the film’s production, from the continued issues with coordinating with Walt to prolonged disagreements between the staff animators and concept artist Eyvind Earle, as well as the reception of Sleeping Beauty. In the discussion section, Alex and Harrison go extremely hard, covering so many topics so quickly that to chronicle them all here would result in something the length of a small novella. Ultimately – with the help of some guests – they examine the distinct aesthetics of Sleeping Beauty’s different spaces, discuss the differences between the depiction and perception of gender in the film, debate who Sleeping Beauty is actually about, and sing the praises of Maleficent and the Good Fairies.

Follow the show on Twitter @DreamDeeperPod, Alex on Twitter @alex_isaak and instagram @alexisaak_, and Harrison on Twitter @Play_Champion. You can also email the show at dreamalittledeeperpod@gmail.com

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11 – Lady and the Tramp

Talk Film Society — Tue, 02 Mar 2021 17:33:30 +0000

This week, the podcast goes to the dogs as our hosts discuss Lady and the Tramp. Alex digs into the various stories of the film’s origins and the rest of the obstacles faced by the film, including the disagreements between Walt and Lady and the Tramp’s lead concept artist. Morgan provides some additional insight on Disneyland’s opening and how close it actually was to abject failure. Alex digs into the shared aesthetic roots of Disneyland and Lady and the Tramp. Harrison gets really excited as Alex explains Cinemascope and its effect on Lady and the Tramp’s production. Moving on to the discussion section, Harrison struggles to articulate why he finds the film boring. Both Harrison and Alex are floored by the level of racism on display in this film. Tazmyn live reacts to the Siamese cats and provides her interpretation of their depiction, while Alex brings in some context for anti-Asian sentiments in the US at the time.

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10 – Peter Pan

Talk Film Society — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:52:57 +0000

Our production pipeline finally thawed out after the winter storm ground the US to a halt last week! As such, Alex once again examines the production history surrounding Peter Pan. Tazmyn returns to discuss J.M. Barrie’s personal life, some more context for both the film and the original production, and the draw of Neverland’s magic and escapism. Our hosts dig into the weird, kinda toxic depictions of women in Peter Pan, from the toxic relationships between all the women in Neverland to the roles Wendy finds herself forced into. Alex asks Harrison what his Fursona would be if he was a Lost Boy. Our guest Lexie Tafoya provides a Native American perspective on the film’s depiction of them, while Tazmyn provides an example of the British perspective on the issue. Harrison steers the conversation towards Captain Hook, the accuracy of his depiction in Kingdom Hearts, and what his presence in Neverland means on a thematic level. Harrison also thinks the crocodile is the Grim Reaper.

**Content Warning for brief discussion of pedophilia and child sexual assault from 1:23:05 to 1:24:36 and 1:26:00 to 1:26:50**

**Content Warning for brief discussion of bondage from 1:31:23 to 1:32:38**

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9 – Alice in Wonderland

Talk Film Society — Tue, 09 Feb 2021 06:43:48 +0000

This week, Harrison and Alex find themselves in a deeper rabbit hole than expected discussing Alice in Wonderland. Alex once again covers production history, including the previous failed attempts to get an Alice movie made. Harrison steps in with some context about Carroll’s life and the Victorian literary movement. Tazmyn starts off our discussion segment by explaining why the movie resonated with her as a child, how dark and transgressive Alice in Wonderland feels, and concerns surrounding Carroll’s relationship with the young girls he befriended. The Tweedles make Alex profoundly uncomfortable. Harrison brings up Kingdom Hearts again.

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8 – Cinderella

Talk Film Society — Tue, 02 Feb 2021 18:20:26 +0000

The show is finally back to discussing a single movie a week, something our hosts are both VERY thankful for. Alex once again goes over the production history surrounding Cinderella, digging into the multiple potential post-package film comeback options Walt considered, the various forms Cinderella itself took, and the lengths Walt took to make sure Cinderella was a success. Our guests dunk on the animals, and Lindsay offers some suggestions for how better to use those parts of the runtime. Harrison touches on how the aesthetics of class serve as indicators of the moral core of Lady Tremaine and her daughters. Alex hates the prince. Most of our guests don’t like him either and find Cinderella a boring lead. Manish, however, argues for a self awareness to Cinderella and she has a lot more going on than people give her credit for. Alex provides a read of Cinderella as a victim of emotional and physical abuse at the hands of Lady Tremaine, Anastasia, and Drizella. Alex and Harrison wrap up with a light discussion of the depictions of monarchy, class, the master/servant dynamics that manifest in the film, and Lady Tremaine’s effectiveness as a villain.

*Content Warning for discussions of physical and emotional abuse throughout, with specific discussion begins at 54:40 and running through 1:12:20.*

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Episode 7.2 – The Package Films Part 2

Talk Film Society — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 15:58:00 +0000

Alex and Harrison’s sanity is tested as they discuss the four Package films, a task so stressful the episode had to be split in two in order to be manageable. This episode focuses on Melody Time and The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad. Alex gives a very brief summary of the history she covered in Episode 7.1 before launching into discussion of Melody Time. Harrison brought notes this time, and goes DEEP on the conceptions of American folklore, history, and mythology the film presents through Johnny Appleseed and Pecos Bill. They discuss the apparent desire to make Jose Carioca a thing and the way that fell apart. Morgan Edwards presents a theory for why no one knows about the package films. Our hosts praise the framing device for The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad. Alex and Harrison debate the likability of Mr. Toad, while Harrison puts him in the context of the British class hierarchy. Alex digs into how gender functions in Sleepy Hollow and the ways Karina and Ichabod use the other gender to further their own ends. Jack Caudle sings the praises of the design of the Headless Horseman. Our hosts give their rankings of Disney’s output to this point.

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7.1 – The Package Films Part 1

Talk Film Society — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 00:23:12 +0000

Alex and Harrison’s sanity is tested as they discuss the four Package films, a task so stressful the episode had to be split in two in order to be manageable. This episode focuses on Make Mine Music and Fun and Fancy Free. That being said, all of Alex’s research ends up in this episode, as she explains the financial realities and production wrinkles that surrounded the creation of these package anthologies. Our hosts dig into the class depictions across Make Mine Music before digging into the individual shorts. Harrison is befuddled by the lasting appeal of Casey at the Bat, while Alex takes the chance to examine the short’s depictions of masculinity and gender. Harrison really digs into the way his capitalist-centric reading of Dumbo carries forward into the Bongo short and how heteronormativity is tied up in American capitalism, Harrison doesn’t know where peas come from, hates how big food is, and changes his mind.

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6 – Saludos Amigos and The Three Caballeros

Talk Film Society — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:43:47 +0000

This week, Alex goes deep on the production history of Saludos Amigos and The Three Caballeros, interrogates the impact of the animators’ trips to South America and Mexico, and walks through the various appearances of the Three Caballeros in Disney media post-2011. Harrison gets very worked up over plane bones, goes in on Donald for being a pervert, and bemoans the underuse of the Aracuan in Three Caballeros. Our hosts also discuss the recent appearance of the Disney Plus content warning, and the ways it is both a good thing and emblematic of how low the bar actually is for Disney to deal with problematic content from its past. They also go back and forth on how both films are tied up in matters of cultural imperialism, and how damaging it could be for these films to be viewed as educational material.

Follow the show on Twitter @DreamDeeperPod, Alex on twitter @alex_isaak and instagram @alexisaak_, and Harrison on Twitter @Play_Champion. You can also email the show at dreamalittledeeperpod@gmail.com

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5 – Bambi

Talk Film Society — Tue, 22 Dec 2020 04:12:00 +0000

Alex’s research got away from her again this week, and thus goes into detail on the production history of Bambi, from animation reference research and techniques to adaptational changes, as well as reactions to the film upon release. Harrison goes in on Thumper and the issues with Disney films overall he represents. Alex ponders the eternal question “is skunk gay?” Harrison once again criticizes the film’s pacing. Our hosts also examine why this movie hates parents, emotional manipulation in Disney films, the effectiveness of the film’s conservationist intentions, sudden tonal shifts, the role of women as depicted in the film, and an off-puttingly thicc owl.

Follow the show on twitter @DreamDeeperPod, Alex on twitter @alex_isaak and instagram @alexisaak_, and Harrison on twitter @Play_Champion. You can also email the show at dreamalittledeeperpod@gmail.com.

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4 – Dumbo

Talk Film Society — Tue, 15 Dec 2020 03:38:00 +0000

Let’s get ready to Dumbooooooooooo!! Alex went overboard on research this week and showed up to record with a dozen pages of notes on the history of United States labor relations, the rise of unions, the 1941 animators’ strike, and Walt’s attitudes towards unions and “communism.” With this context, Alex and Harrison dig in properly, specifically discussing the explicit racism present in Dumbo, how the film envisions personal satisfaction and fulfillment, and the emotional impact of everything surrounding Dumbo’s mom. Harrison talks about the Pink Elephants sequence and how it’s emblematic of squash and stretch animation. Alex also tries to put a spoiler tag on history after having already finished the history section, which is just ridiculous, honestly.

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3 – Fantasia

Talk Film Society — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 07:06:00 +0000

This week, Alex goes through Fantasia’s production history, the distinctions between American and European animation styles, the sound design woes that plagued the film’s release, and Fantasia’s critical reception. Harrison enters full stan mode, but Alex has questions about why this, of all the Disney films, hits Harrison so hard. Our hosts also dig into the objectionable depictions of race in the Pastoral Symphony and Nutcracker Suite sequences. A lot of this is Harrison just gushing about how good this movie is on all fronts, and how inseparable it is from his feelings on Kingdom Hearts. Alex, however, is less enthusiastic and really concerned about whoever is running the fish animation department over at Disney.

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2 – Pinocchio

Talk Film Society — Tue, 01 Dec 2020 19:41:04 +0000

This week, Alex breaks out the dictionary to define “Disney formalism” as well as the issues with the popular framework of “Classic Disney.” Dr. Justin Rawlins explains the consolidation of Hollywood into the studio system, the rise of censorship and moral codes, and the potential impact it had on Walt Disney Studios’ popular understanding. Harrison gets really excited about multiplane shots, water, and butter. Our hosts grapple with the question of who is at fault for the events that befall Pinocchio and the associated confusing messages surrounding consciences (and consciousness). Harrison analyzes the class themes buried in various characters’ clothing, and both hosts consider the very real horrors that underlie Honest John, The Coachman and Pleasure Island. Alex also examines the roles of women in the film, and breaks down Jiminy’s perceptions of women.

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*Content warning for discussions of child trafficking and sexual assault from 25:10 to 26:05 and 1:00:40 to 1:05:18.*

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1 – Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

Talk Film Society — Tue, 24 Nov 2020 19:42:12 +0000

On this first episode of Dream a Little Deeper, Alex outlines the methodology for the show and quickly details animation history leading up to Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Every guest puzzles over if Snow White is actually a good film or not, while reflecting on the image of Walt Disney in pop culture. Harrison questions the film’s length and pacing in terms of narrative structure, and both hosts have concerns about some latent labor, class, and gender themes throughout the film. Alex also feels the need to explain her head canon for the ending, and Harrison mocks this film’s conception of black magic.

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Light content warning for brief discussions of assault and assault imagery between 42:00 to 44:20.

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