The Lower Desire Wife #437

Transcript of Episode

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio where, once again, we are having honest, straightforward conversations about married life, and love, and sex, and how we believe that how you do sex is how you’ll do life, and how you do life is how you do sex.

Corey Allan: So we’re talking about it all here at Sexy Marriage Radio. Today’s episode, I’m joined by a colleague of mine that’s going to be worth checking out. And so, but before we get to that, if you like what we’ve got going on here at Sexy Marriage Radio, we ask that you jump on iTunes, rate and review the show, leave a comment, helps spread the word that married sex has got it going on.

Corey Allan: And, also want to ask that, if you, as part of the members of the Sexy Marriage Radio nation got a question, or a thought, or a comment that you want us to address on the show, or to go deeper with, or go further along with with a prior guest, give us a call. (214) 702-9565.

Corey Allan: You can also jump on the inbox and email us at feedback@sexymergeradio.com, and as we’re starting off this week, I’ve got to give a shout out to the Freedom Church in Los Alamos, New Mexico. Got the privilege of being able to speak there this past weekend at their Sunday services, and they have a fantastic thing growing in the Los Alamos community. It was a wonderful time.

Corey Allan: And so, to all the people that are there, thanks for being so welcoming and warming. It was a great time, and all the best and God’s blessings on the work and the path that you continued to do.

Corey Allan: And also, I have to say a shout out to my seven year old best friend that I made over the weekend. Jeremiah, you rock. So, it was such a great time to just… Out of the mouths of babes, I guess you could say, and just listening to the conversations that can take place from children.

Corey Allan: So, coming up on today’s regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is a conversation with a colleague of mine, Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and we get into how do you deal with lower desire, and what are the aspects of lower desire that need to be addressed that can help us uncover desire a little bit more.

Corey Allan: She has some fantastic work in that arena and on the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer, and there’s no ads, you can subscribe at smr.fm. She and I, Dr. Jennifer and I continue a conversation on her dissertation, where she did a qualitative study within the LDS community and the women within that culture and that dynamic, which, generally, would tend to be much more conservative, is the way you can look at it.

Corey Allan: So, it applies to much more than just the LDS culture, but we talk about her research and what she found, when it comes to sexuality and desire growing up within that framework.

Corey Allan: And, I also bring in the research I did for my dissertation, which is along the same lines with a little bit of a different bent on the in the Christian church. So, all that is coming up on today’s show.

Corey Allan: Well, joining me for this episode of Sexy Marriage Radio is Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, who is a woman I’ve come across that’s a colleague, because she is into the Schnarch world, just like I am.

Corey Allan: And, if you’ve been a part of Sexy Marriage Radio nation length of time, you’ve probably heard me reference differentiation, or crucible, or something that Schnarch does because I’m a fan, and I like his work and try to use his work in a lot of ways, always giving him respect.

Corey Allan: And, Jennifer’s in the same tribe as me, I guess you could say, but she also has some fantastic takes that are worth exploring when you’re talking about just some of the dynamics that play out in marriage.

Corey Allan: And so, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining the show today.

Jennifer: Thanks for having me.

Corey Allan: And so, Jennifer, I think, let’s just to start diving right in. When you’re talking about the dynamics of marriage and how we believe that sex and marriage is a sacred, blessed thing by God, but it’s also one of those things that, man, it can be so cumbersome, and so troublesome because when you first were meeting, it was easy, maybe, as far as the desire goes. Sex, maybe, wasn’t easy, but the desire probably was, and then, as you get into it, all of a sudden, it’s not. And so-

Jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: How do you enter into that arena with people?

Jennifer: Well, at first, I think, it’s probably good to just normalize that shift because I think a lot of people take that as a pathology somehow of their marriage, or of who they chose, as opposed to a reality that comes out of what are the fundamental dynamics of desire.

Jennifer: And so, when you’re in the falling in love stage, all the novelty, the uncertainty, the ways that your beloved expands your sense of self.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: Right? Because now this person that you really think is attractive and you value, thinks you’re attractive and values you and wants to be close to you, and is validating of your sexual desirability. That makes us feel good about ourselves. And so, we want it, and we go towards it.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: And, it’s exciting because you don’t necessarily know what’s on the other side of that bridge. And, those are all the qualities of desire. When you make it highly legal though, and you move into marriage, as we do.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Jennifer: And now, for many of us, especially those who have grown up in a religious tradition around what it is to be good and sexual, or what it is, particularly to be a female and be good and be sexual, it often moves quickly into the obligation frame, right?

Corey Allan: Yes.

Jennifer: That if I’m a good wife or a good partner, I will have sex. And, God expected me to be chaste, perhaps, before marriage. And, that was part of the forbidden that made it desirable.

Corey Allan: Right,

Jennifer: Now, if I’m doing God’s will, I’m supposed to have sex and I’m supposed to like it, and now, it’s highly legal, highly expected. And, for those of us who’ve grown up with any idea that our sexuality belongs to our partner, not to ourselves, or if I’m a good woman in my religious tradition, you give this over to your husbands.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: It’s a gift you give him, right? Well, then it starts to constrict your sense of self and it makes you start feeling like, “I don’t belong to me. And now, my sexuality has half his, and I’m supposed to because it’s Wednesday, and it’s been three days and he’s getting agitated.”

Corey Allan: Right. Because this is all about just accommodating and adjusting according to the male in the relationship.

Jennifer: That’s right. That’s right. So, it’s a very male reference. It’s not a self reference. And, this is precisely what will kill desire. So, there’s two elements here. One is just, when you move into the predictability of marriage, even if you don’t have those ideas, okay?

Corey Allan: Right

Jennifer: There’s still a piece that we can talk about how you would create and cultivate desire in that more predictable, secure reality of the relationship. But then, for many people, and many of the people that I work with, there is this idea that I should do this, and I’m supposed to do this, and I’m supposed to be the caretaker of his sexuality, and that kills sex and desire right out of the gate.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: So now, sex becomes all about duty, and you take care of your kids all day, now you’ve got to take care of your husband at night and you’re crawling out of your skin because you have no sense of belonging to yourself, which is very different than the experience of falling in love, where this whole experience was expanding your sense of self. Now, you feel like you’re shrinking into the marriage.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: And, desire cannot be fostered in that shrinking reality.

Corey Allan: Okay. And, I love how you framed it at the very beginning of this, because you’re talking about, one, that’s a normal process of what happens in many, most, all marriages because that’s the one thing, if you think about it… I come across a lot of couples where one of the parties has come into it because it, and they enjoy the relationship because it provides a sense of security and safety.

Corey Allan: But, that also is a killer of desire because that becomes the predictable, right? That becomes the routine-

Jennifer: That’s right.

Corey Allan: … and desire needs that novelty, in some regards, or that unknown, to expand itself.

Jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: So, at least by normalizing it helps people recognize it.

Jennifer: Yes. That’s right. And then, it also needs that element of authenticity and self. And, most of us don’t know how to do a marriage where two selves can thrive. Referencing the Schnarch ideas that we create these borrowed functioning realities in which often the higher desire person is trying to have sex to feel that they are a legitimate self.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: So, validate me, tell me I’m enough by wanting me.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: And, the lower desire person is often trying to have a self by not feeling taken over, or having to manage the self of the partner.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: Right? And so, that’s how you get into these often extreme high and low desire dynamics. They often get punctuated through the immaturity that’s operating within the couple.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And so, because you’ve probably just described a vast number of Sexy Marriage Radio nation listeners with that right there, of the higher desire gets their identity, in some regards, their value, over their sexual conquest, or sexual ability, their desirability, whatever it might be.

Jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: And then, the lower desire is spending their time just trying to… “I don’t want to be taken over. I don’t want to give myself over, even.” I think that’s a nicer way to even say it, but it’s still is not nice and clean. So, what do you do with that then? Where do we go with that?

Jennifer: Well, as a therapist and coach that’s working with people on these issues, my first goal is to expose that dynamic, and to help people see it so that they can make more choices to break that dynamic. Right? And, to expose that there is a borrowed functioning reality that’s operating within their beds, or within their marriage.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: Because a lot of times people can’t see it. They’re just like, “I have no desire. I have no idea, even, of what happened, because I had it right up until the day we got married and then it was gone.” And so, it feels like a mystery often, of what’s happening. So, it’s helping people see why it makes good sense to not want the sex you’re having. You’re not broken. You’re have good judgment. Nobody wants to do that. I mean, I think I heard Schnarch say something once like, “You can either prop up your husband’s ego or his penis, but not both.” You know, you’re not-

Corey Allan: Yep. That’s a great phrase.

Jennifer: Yeah. You’re just not going to want this person if you feel like you’re managing their sense of self. So, I think helping people see what they’re operating in, and helping them confront the betrayal or self-betrayal within it. You’re using your lower desire spouse to prop up your sense of self.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: You may think of yourself as so sexually competent, and able, and you’ve got this broken partner. Okay? But, in reality, what you’re doing, there’s nothing noble or virtuous about what you’re doing. There’s nothing strong about it. It looks like strength, but it’s really weak.

Jennifer: And, to help the lower desire person see that they have taken an under-functioning position. Well, it depends on how you think about it. But, they’ve taken a more accommodating position and that what they are doing is not only bad for them, it’s bad for their partnership.

Jennifer: And-

Corey Allan: So, how is that bad for them? Because I want to jump on… Because one of the things I’ve loved about catching up on your work and just the way you’re framing it is, is you do an excellent job, in my opinion, of framing it for women. I mean, being one helps. That’s where I have an audience that I could-

Jennifer: Sure. You’re disadvantaged in that way.

Corey Allan: I’ve not ever been a woman. And so, and I can frame things for the higher desire male because that’s me.

Jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: But, I’m curious of, what is it that becomes the path for the woman in this-

Jennifer: For the lower desire woman?

Corey Allan: Right. And, how she’s contributing, colluding-

Jennifer: Right. In that dysfunction.

Corey Allan: Right. What’s-

Jennifer: Well, I think for many people, and I come from an LDS background, Mormon background, and it’s very much in the culture, the idealization of a woman taking a sidekick, one down position, in the marriage.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: This is an idealized role. You are his support, you are his help meet, so to speak. And, your sexuality is there for the comfort and the sustenance of the man.

Corey Allan: Right, it exists for the husband.

Jennifer: Exactly. Now, the thing that sometimes, I think, feminism hasn’t done a great job of articulating, maybe we’re easy to be blind to, is the upside of dependency. The temptation in a Cinderella position, so to speak. Who doesn’t want a Prince who’s going to come and take care of you, admire you, desire you, offer you a castle, and take all the anxiety of living life away. Right? I mean, who doesn’t want that? Okay?

Corey Allan: That sounds good to me. Yup.

Jennifer: Right? And so, there’s a lot of this…how to say it. We want, often, to hide in the shadow of a partner.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: Okay. And so, what I would often be pushing the lower desire person on is that, they may well be in a dynamic where the higher desire person is somewhat of a bully, or is dominant, or pressuring, or is selfish enough that his desires, let’s just do it in the stereotypical male, female, high desire, low desire way, is pressuring and taking up 90% of the oxygen in the marriage.

Jennifer: Okay? So, I’m going to first deal with that person, very likely. Okay?

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: If that person’s not going to go anywhere with it, then I’m going to go and talk to her because she’s the linchpin in that reality.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: And, because she’s accommodating it and putting up with it, even if she’s miserable, it’s allowing it to be sustained in the guy.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: So, I’m talking to her about the fact that she’s maybe taken some safety in this position. She doesn’t have to stick her neck out and define a life, and define a self in the world. She can think of herself as superior often. These are just some of the archetypal realities that I’m working with. “I can feel superior because I put up with you and your hedonism and your selfishness, and I’m the long suffering good one. Christ and I understand each other.”

Corey Allan: I get it. I can see that. Yup.

Jennifer: And, there’s a kind of martyr superiority that is a pseudo-self.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: And, it’s easy to just, there’s a safety in it, a way you can extract a superiority. A way you can never really choose your husband and feel justified in doing that. Never really step up as a partner, feel justified. And, of course, the husband’s making it easy if he’s doing his shenanigans of taking over too much of the marriage, thinking it should revolve around him or whatever.

Corey Allan: Neither side is virtuous in this journey.

Jennifer: No, exactly right. Exactly right. And, you can still do all that martyr and not necessarily have a dominant husband. We can talk about, there’s other ways in which you can still do this role if you are determined enough to, but I think that… And then, also the self-betrayal in it, that this person has bought into a system or an idea to betray their own development-

Corey Allan: Speak to that.

Jennifer: … disregard their own sexuality. Yes.

Corey Allan: Speak to that. Because I think that’s the stuff that was so profound in some regards of just recognizing, hold on, this is about my own development that I’m stunting. I’m ultimately harming myself, possibly.

Jennifer: Yes, exactly. So, you’re referencing some of the work I do in the women’s art of desire course. Is that what you’re saying right now, that you were saying that that’s… ? Yes.

Jennifer: So, I’m talking to women a lot about this reality that they have learned to devalue their desires as a function of goodness. I’m the selfless one. I’m the accommodating one. I will do everything for everybody and neglect my own desires as a function of goodness. And, you know, many women come by this honestly, this is precisely how they’ve been taught to function in the world.

Jennifer: And so, my workshops and my course for women and desire is very much about challenging whether or not that’s even good because you’re propping up bullies. There’s no, I mean, to speak in the most blatant form, there’s nothing virtuous about propping up somebody taking advantage, whether it’s your child, a parent, a partner.

Jennifer: And so, helping women to start looking at the virtue of desire, which is the idea of that desire is about what allows me to reach for something beyond myself and develop my capacities and God-given gifts, inclusive of my sexuality-

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: … but not just sexuality. To develop into a stronger, more able woman who can discern about where she gives, and what she offers, and what she creates in the world.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: So, I’m very much interested in women challenging this idea that sabotaging or sacrificing their development is a virtue. Because, in my experience, it only creates resentment. It creates very non-intimate marriages because if you have no self to share, you are not going to be able to create intimacy. Full stop.

Corey Allan: Right. It’s all role playing.

Jennifer: It’s all role play. Exactly. And, many of us have learned this idea that a role-based marriage is a marriage, and well, it is a marriage but it’s not an intimate marriage.

Corey Allan: No. Yeah. It’s not, it’s not one that has a tremendous depth, and vibrancy, and life, and passion, and energy, and even the flip side of it, of the pain and the struggle, because you know full well that it’s both sides of this thing we’re talking about. We don’t always get the glorious side of it.

Jennifer: No, exactly. It becomes an act of two people, and you’re playing out roles and there’s some security in that, and I actually think there’s some function in it. I’m not here to say that there’s no value in that kind of marriage, but if we want an intimate marriage, which many of us want, but we haven’t quite articulated our wanting and longing for that, is that we’re often operating in a different model of marriage, not one that would create intimacy, not one that’s about two people showing up honestly.

Jennifer: And, a lot of us want the ideal of an intimate marriage, as in, I want you to validate my desirability, and my goodness, and my virtue, even though I don’t think I’m that desirable, good, or virtuous. I want you to think I am.

Corey Allan: Right. I want you to see what I’m not, as I deem it, at least.

Jennifer: Exactly right. So, a lot of us want that validation in a marriage, but we don’t necessarily want an intimate marriage because that means you have to be knowable.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: And, you have to tolerate knowing yourself and your partner. And, those can both be harrowing experiences. And, a lot of us are very happy to hide within a role, or within, I’ll accommodate your desires. That way, I don’t have to expose mine and take the risk of exposing mine.

Corey Allan: Or, can it also be, that way, I don’t even have to explore what mine might actually be?

Jennifer: Precisely.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: Because for many of us, we haven’t even figured out what they are because we’ve been so good at tucking those invitations, or yearnings, within ourselves away.

Corey Allan: Okay. Because that’s the thing I keep coming across is, and have proposed on prior episodes of the show, that there are times when a lower desire, when asked what they want, and they respond with, I don’t know. That’s an accurate answer.

Jennifer: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: It’s true with where they are in their process of development at that moment.

Jennifer: Yes. That’s right.

Corey Allan: They don’t know. But, you’re talking about the courageousness of venturing into, well maybe I could figure, and that could be a scary proposition.

Jennifer: It’s starting… Oh, it is terrifying. When I do these live workshops and I start talking about this, women are like, “Oh, crap. Now, it’s getting real.”

Corey Allan: Now, you’re meddling.

Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And, one woman came to one of my workshops and I do this, how to know what your life’s purpose is in five minutes or less. It’s borrowed from a Ted Talk, but, basically it’s just starting to ask the question, what are the things I love to do? Whom do I do these things for? What do I create, or what blesses their life through doing it?

Jennifer: It’s just starting to look at, what are the gifts I have? And, a lot of people were like, “Well, it’s not something great. It’s not something amazing. I just like organizing stuff.” Well, let’s just start with that. Let’s look at what it is.

Jennifer: Well, one woman that had done one of these workshops, she wrote me about six months later and she just said, “I just want you to know, when I first did this exercise, it was, ‘What do I do? Basically laundry, stuff for my family. Who do I do it for? My kids.’ Basically, there’s no me in this.”

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: And, she said she went home from the workshop and she cried because she just felt like, “I know nothing about what I want. My whole life has been wrapped around my children and I have no sense of self.”

Jennifer: But, she made a commitment to herself and to God that she was going to stay open, openhearted, to start letting herself know her desires. And, one of the ways I tell people to do is look at where your resentments lie because your resentment is often an indicator that you want something, but you’re placing the responsibility for that desire at someone else’s feet.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: And so, look at your resentments. That’s one place to start. But also, what are the things that make you brighten or lighten up? And, she made this commitment to herself, and she started to understand there was this part of her that really loved the idea of meditation. She had no history of it. She had tried it a couple times, but she decided she was going to start opening yourself up to it.

Jennifer: Then she invited some friends over one night and did a yoga meditation. And, they loved it. They were like, “You are so good at this.” And then, she did it another night and a guy came to it that was a doctor who was writing a book and said, “Would you be willing to write some meditations for my book?”, because they were so good.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: Okay? And then, she came to another workshop of mine, which was a three-day, not a workshop, but a retreat and she did these for the women, and they were like, “These are amazing.” So anyway, she wrote me and she just said, this was before she did it for the retreat because I actually invited her to come to the retreat and do them, but she wrote me and just said, “This whole aspect of myself is starting to open up. I’m so grateful for it.”

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: But, she was certainly starting from a place of not knowing, and now, these realities are starting to become emergent and present for her, because she started asking the question.

Corey Allan: Right. Because this almost sounds like what you’re describing is, is spending the time trying to figure out, is this what I want or is this what I think I should want? It’s getting into that role versus true, quintessential self.

Jennifer: Yes. Or, in a Schnarch frame, reflected sense of self versus solid self. Is it what I’ve been told by others that I know I’ll get validation for doing?

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: Or, is this me, and it doesn’t mean we have to live in a amoral world where we’re not referencing what other people… That’s not it.

Corey Allan: That’s an impossibility.

Jennifer: That’s an impossibility. But also, is this something that lights me up? It makes me feel whole. There’s something I referenced in my… I don’t think I can say this quote, but it comes from the gospel according to Thomas, which is the Dead Sea Scrolls, or these scriptural texts that were found in Egypt in 1940.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Jennifer: Right? So, Thomas is quoting Christ, is saying something, and this is a paraphrase, but basically, if you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer: And, this is this idea of the parable of the talents, that you are given these gifts. And, a lot of times we want to make them these lofty gifts, or we want to resent that I don’t have 10 talents, therefore I’m resentful, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: Resentful, and I just shut it all down rather than, what are the gifts that I have? Just inclinations, capacities, and that we have a responsibility to bless the body of Christ through developing those gifts. And, that’s extraordinarily important, not only for our own sense of sustenance, for saving ourselves, find ourselves in this good way, but also absolutely essential for the quality of our relationships. And, that God wants this for us. It’s not in selfishness. A lot of the people I work with will get into, is it selfish or selfless?

Jennifer: I’m like, that’s the wrong question.

Corey Allan: The premise is off in that.

Jennifer: The premise is off. The framing makes it so it’s a question that can’t be answered. And, for many of my clients, and people in my workshops and classes, they are asking these questions about their sexuality, and about their development of self and their desires, in that frame that you get stuck in either way.

Jennifer: It’s in the wrong paradigm.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: Rather than a paradigm that self-development, and development of the best in ourselves, allows us more capacity for deep connection with other people, not less.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: And, limited self-development interferes with our sexual self-development and our relational self development.

Corey Allan: Right. Jennifer, I could talk about this for the rest of the day.

Jennifer: I know. It’s good stuff.

Corey Allan: Yes, it, absolutely is. But, as we close out this segment, I need to at least tell people, because I know people are going to want to know more. So, how can they find you? And, I’ll also put all this in the show notes. So…

Jennifer: Great. Right, so my website is my name, which is finlayson-fife.com, so finlayson-fife.com. And, I have lots of podcasts. You can subscribe to podcasts that I’ve been on if you want. But, there’s also, I do online courses, and I do live workshops for couples and individuals.

Jennifer: My audience is primarily LDS, in the sense that that’s the group that I grew up in and also what I wrote my dissertation on. But, lots of people who are not LDS, and particularly people that are Christian, find the courses to be very relevant to them, because I’m not so much referencing LDS theology as I am Christian theology, Christian principles, and how they relate to our development as people.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer: So, I have a course for couples and their relationship. A course for couples and their sexual relationship. And then, one that’s been very, very popular, which is around women’s sexual self-development and self-development. So, I call it, The Art of Desire, and it’s a course on, basically, desire and its relationship to yourself and sexual development.

Jennifer: And then, I also do want on how to talk to your kids about sex and offer your kids your values without crushing their ability to embrace their sexuality in line with their values. Yes.

Corey Allan: Well, and as someone who’s seen most of the three, the first three you talked about, I can wholeheartedly recommend them because you do great work, Jennifer. So, thank you so much for the time and joining me on this segment.

Corey Allan: If you’re curious if hearing more of Jennifer, check out or sight or also subscribe to the extended content because we’re going to unpack her dissertation here in just a second. So, I think I’m going to geek out. I’m going to have fun with it. So, let’s see.

Jennifer: Good.

Corey Allan: Well, the one thing that stands out to me from the conversation I got to have with Dr. Jennifer is there is weight on both sides of this equation with higher desire, lower desire, and each side has a path and a burden to carry. And, it’s really easy as spouses to blame the other and to think, “Well, they’re not carrying their weight.” And, the one thing I hope that rings true to you, is you realize, “I got to look at myself and am I carrying mine? Am I being, and acting out of goodness and virtue? Or have I masked that and made it look like it is, but it really isn’t.”

Corey Allan: So, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we’ve left something undone, let us know. (214) 702-9565. So, wherever you are, whatever you’ve been doing, thanks for taking some time out of your day to spend it with us. See you next time.