Corey Allan:
Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, and straight from iTunes, Pam-

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Corey Allan:
There's some reviews that have come in, because we lead off the show every week with this idea of, if you like what we do or you're part of the SMR Nation, please help us spread the word, and the way you can do that is however you listen, which might be iTunes via Apple Podcasts or any other podcast player, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Google Play, rate and review, leave a comment.

Corey Allan:
And so this was just left this past couple of weeks that says, "These two are brilliant," which I just want to end it right there, "Lighthearted and wonderful. I truly appreciate their work. Please continue to record because this is sorely needed. I love the show. I used to think that the fact your wife was not a female clinician would detract from the analysis, yet that isn't the case. As a psychologist, sometimes I do want the nerdy psychobabble but I can't turn off the show nonetheless. Great job."

Pam Allan:
Oh. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate you leaving that review.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely. We love knowing that with the SMR Nation, we can speak into whatever might be going on in the married couple's worlds, and the way we know where we're going with a lot of these is people in the SMR Nation email us or they call us, and you can do the same, and this is our plea to you to do the same. Give us a call at 214-702-9565 is the way you can leave a voicemail, jump to the front of the line, because we've got a lot of questions in the queue. I was just going through them all in pre-show, like, "Wow, we got a lot we still have not got to."

Pam Allan:
Yeah, we need to address, right?

Corey Allan:
But if you've got something pressing, call us. That gets you to the front of the line, or email us at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com, because I get it, some people don't want their voice on the air, and we are able to alter the voice a little bit so that you wouldn't even know it was you leaving the message. How cool is that?

Pam Allan:
Food for thought. Yep.

Corey Allan:
This episode of Sexy Marriage Radio is brought to you by Let's Get Checked, a company that's all about personal health testing, working to make healthcare and health screening open and patient-led for everyone. Go to TryLGC.com/SMR that's T-R-Y-L-G-C dot com forward slash SMR, and use the code SMR20 at checkout to save 20% today.

Corey Allan:
Coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is a couple of your emails that have come in and our answers, which also will help set the stage for where we're going to go a little bit with the extended content, because in the extended content, which is deeper, longer and there's no ads ... You can subscribe at SMRNation.com ... we're going to jump into an idea that I came across from Mark Manson's new audiobook that he just came out within the last couple of weeks called Love is Not Enough, which was a good book, ad I'm going to give this as just the caveat. There's some subject matter in there that's a little tough.

Pam Allan:
Yeah. Okay.

Corey Allan:
Very secular, so just giving that heads up to the SMR Nation. I loved it. It's good work, but some of the subject matter has got to be noted. It's a little dicey. But he mentions at the end of the book, he has a chapter titled Simple But Difficult, which has got me thinking after going through it, that's a good framework to unpack a little bit more in the regards of how the SMR Nation, in the emails they send in, we want to walk through some of the different topics that repeatedly come in through this lens.

Pam Allan:
That the solutions can be that simple yet difficult to implement?

Corey Allan:
You can really boil life down in a lot of ways to simple, but it's difficult.

Pam Allan:
But difficult.

Corey Allan:
Right? I mean, a lot of it, and this is the premise of SMR, all the years we've been doing this, is how we view what we're looking at and what we're needing to face changes what we do. And a lot of times, I've got to just really examine, how am I viewing this? And when I can do that, it's simple.

Pam Allan:
But in the moment-

Corey Allan:
But the actual implementing of it is difficult.

Pam Allan:
Difficult. Yeah.

Corey Allan:
All that's coming up on today's show. We have a question about sex during pregnancy.

Pam Allan:
Okay, yeah.

Corey Allan:
It goes on to say, "Howdy. My wife and I are pregnant in our second." That's interesting. He's pregnant with their second.

Pam Allan:
Oh, come on.

Corey Allan:
Oh, sorry.

Pam Allan:
Congratulations.

Corey Allan:
"I own my own business. My wife is a stay-at-home mom and runs the office in the accounting portion of the business. Typically, we're intimate two nights a week, occasionally three. However, pregnancy changes that drastically. Pregnancy for her is a near nightmare. During the first, second and the beginning of the third trimester, she's throwing up every morning, unable to eat much during the day, struggles to get out of the house. Morning sickness is an all day ordeal to the point that she starts to feel better around three or four in the afternoon. Well, after supper, she's exhausted and been wanting to sleep by 8:00. Keep in mind that I'm not mad at my wife. I'm trying to, with mixed results, be sympathetic and help much as I can before and after the day's work.

Corey Allan:
During our last pregnancy, I made the mistake of falling back into pornography due to the lack of self-control and the lack of sex. I've confessed this to my wife and the men I walk with in my life and have been free of this for two years. My wife understands that I would still like to be intimate and she's trying to accommodate, even if she's not really interested or wants nothing to do with it. She's open to manual stimulation from her and sometimes ask for my help. I love giving her pleasure, but that's rarely asked for during this time. I don't mind a hand job here or there, but my experience with this is lack of emotional connection that comes from sex. We both would like to have four plus children, so this is probably going to come up again. Obviously, I'd like to have sex, but I understand that sometimes there are seasons that prohibit it. Would love prayer and advice on how to be sympathetic while still being intimate in whatever form that might be."

Corey Allan:
Well, congratulations, like you mentioned at the outset, and this is one of those things, that pregnancy disrupts a lot of things in life, in not only individual lives as she's experienced with the health side of it and the fallout that happens with some women, a lot of women to varying degrees, but also to the relationship dynamic, because for some women it can be a little bit of an aphrodisiac and some, it's nope, anything but.

Pam Allan:
Quite ... yeah, just no.

Corey Allan:
It just shuts everything down, throws everything off and then you get the postpartum afterwards. So it does create a season, and so its framework at the beginning is recognizing that yeah, this is a season. And so for during this season, the intimate moments that we have when it comes to sex are going to be different. But that's where I want to just land is this idea of, in his mind, he's combined intimate and sex.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Corey Allan:
When the frustrations they're experiencing, what they're going through together, the ability for him to share and walk alongside her as she goes through all of the ordeal this is for her, that's intimate.

Pam Allan:
Well, yeah, and his sharing with her even his falling back into pornography in the first one, his sharing with her, he's got this group of men that are walking beside him and all of that and that she's aware of this and they're walking through that together, that's intimate. That's connection right there. That's incredible. I'm listening to it going, "Good job, dude."

Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Pam Allan:
Well done.

Corey Allan:
Yeah. And on the flip side of this, she's open to the sexual experiences as she can be, even if she's not interested as much.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
That's intimate for her.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
That's a growing and evolving, and so it's recognizing that a lot of intimacy is already happening. It's just not sexual. How do you start to reframe that, and then how do you reframe the sexual encounters and the interplay that you can have even while she's pregnant as a different level of intimacy, a different level of connection?

Corey Allan:
And we don't always get ... A lot of us will come into this whole thing thinking penal vaginal is the holy grail. It's the ultimate thing. But as you go through life and marriage together and you experience different things, you probably find there's not much of a hierarchy. All of it can be good. It's just different versions of good, different versions of connection. And the worst thing I can do is make it as a hierarchy of, "Well, this is the only thing," because now I've just restricted myself and my spouse.

Corey Allan:
How do you reframe the idea that great sex isn't just involving a penis and vagina? Great sex can also be a very intimate hand job, a very intimate oral sex encounter, a very intimate just eye-to-eye connection, conversation. I mean, all of that can be possibly mindblowing, right?

Pam Allan:
It can be.

Corey Allan:
And so it just is a willingness to challenge your own thinking of the meaning of what those are for you, and then the willingness to challenge what you do in the midst of what those are for you. So the next time that you get to have sex with her and that it happens and she's onboard to the point of, "Yep, I get the importance of this for you. I'm on. I'm in. Let's do it, but I don't want to do it this way. I'd rather just do it manual," okay, well, make sure your eye-to-eye connection. Practice a little dirty talk. Practice a little conversation. Practice something different that maybe you don't normally do and that blows the roof off of what it has been.

Corey Allan:
And it's just the willingness to branch out, to try it is the whole thing that makes married sex not only such a great long game, it makes married sex such a developmental drive wheel for our own self, of challenging myself into, "I've never seen myself as much of that, but you know what? I'm actually pretty good at it now thinking about it." That's something I think just adds so much fuel that then you build off of, especially knowing with them, they want to have two more.

Pam Allan:
Yeah. This is-

Corey Allan:
So two more seasons are coming.

Pam Allan:
Yeah. Good job reaching out and saying-

Corey Allan:
Possibly, because sometimes, and I don't hear this a lot, but there are times where a woman's pregnancy experience isn't always the same either because her body's changing and evolving and her ability is changing and evolving.

Pam Allan:
Sure.

Corey Allan:
So who knows what each one of those phases and seasons are like?

Pam Allan:
Sure. We can pray that the next one wouldn't be like this, right?

Corey Allan:
Absolutely.

Pam Allan:
He coveted prayers as well, so we can do that.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely. But it's recognizing that yes, this is a season. These seasons pass, but it doesn't mean you have to just sit by and wait idly by until it passes. How do I reframe and challenge some of the dynamic between us to start seeing it as not only is it I'm looking for stuff that's sexual, I've also got a lot of stuff that's intimate, so how do I separate those two to make both better?

Corey Allan:
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Corey Allan:
So Pam, here's an email that came in. This is from a husband that he goes on to say, "I've been working on being more present, in the moment and not focusing on the result of my efforts to flirt and initiate sex throughout the day, but only focusing on the moment and the experience and trying to make my wife really feel loved. I'm definitely the one with higher libido and feel very strong sexual desire for her constantly. The problem with that is when I spend an afternoon and evening trying to warm her up to the idea such as little loving texts, acts of service, flirtatious glances, et cetera, and she ultimately is just not in the mood or she's had a very hard day and isn't feeling sexy, whatever the reason may be, my problem is I'm struggling not having the ability to brush it off and not let myself be outwardly affected emotionally by sex not happening.

Corey Allan:
I obviously don't have the skill to suppress my sexual frustration when that happens, despite my best efforts. I can assure you that I am genuine in my delivery and my motive to just simply make her feel loved, but always in the back of my mind, I'm subtly looking forward to her responding sexually to my behavior. When she doesn't respond sexually to my actions, I can't stop my body language from giving her the impression that she's just disappointed me, which results in her feeling guilty, which is the last thing that I should be making her feel. Please help me learn how to suppress sexual frustration so my wife doesn't feel guilty when we don't have sex. Thanks guys."

Pam Allan:
Yeah. Well, I'm looking to you, doctor. I'm looking to you, doctor.

Corey Allan:
He just encapsulated a huge portion of our show-

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
And our audience.

Pam Allan:
Yes. I want him to know he is not alone. Those things have happened right here in this household over time, over the years, right?

Corey Allan:
True. And so that's where I want to come at this with wanting to not only talk about this from a professional lens and the way I think of it with a theory, but also let's talk about it, how it's played out with us, because, well, one of the things to say at the very note of this is while the way we handle this, I would say 26 years, almost 27 years in, is different, it still exists.

Pam Allan:
Sure.

Corey Allan:
So let's just level set it with that to start this thing, that that pressure of a higher desire, feeling frustrated and disappointed because all of the attempts and magic tricks that you can try to instigate something, they don't always work.

Pam Allan:
Well, and from the lower desires level, we recognize that they don't always work and maybe we still don't want it as much as the higher desire.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely.

Pam Allan:
And so there's still some ... Even when the higher desire is gracious and not accusatory, nothing, just a loving, "Okay, that's fine. Not tonight," the guilt could still be there. And so that doesn't necessarily just go away over time or because maybe you've learned some skill.

Corey Allan:
Right. Going to the theoretical real quick, it's recognizing that a lot of times we look at these things and we try to put them in an either or category, when life is rarely an either or. It's a both and, because he talks about he's trying to be completely genuine and authentic and real, that this is about her. He's trying to demonstrate and show love to her. But there is still the attachment of, "I'm hoping I get sex out of it. I'm hoping I get sexual affection out of it, attention out of it." So it's a both and in that she picks up on that, he knows it's in there too, and that's just an unavoidable thing that you can't ever make it to where, "You know what? This is all solely just 100% altruistic. It's just for you," because we all still have that additional, "Yeah, but this comes along with it."

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
And so a lot of times we try to diminish and deny that that's even present, which hurts us. That's the attachments to outcome and that's what he's pointing out, and that's what I'm hearing in his email is he's pointing out the idea of, "I'm trying to make sure I'm dealing with my attachments to outcome and I'm making sure it's very clean and it's very upfront," but he has somewhere in his brain, it sounds like there's a little bit more of a too close of a connection between affection and sex. So if I'm trying to show affection, it leads to sexual in his brain. And that's going to be the case with a lot of people.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, I would say so.

Corey Allan:
But there's also elements of recognizing, "Hold on, how do I reframe? How do I challenge the meanings of affection and see if I can detangle a little bit of its close tie to sex and seem all satisfying either way it may go?"

Pam Allan:
That would take a lot of work, right? Because I think that we've been ... Have we not been trained even growing up that kind of one leads to the other?

Corey Allan:
Right. There's a lot of socialization. There's a lot of culture that goes into this. There's a lot of biology that even goes into this, because there's this ultimate, "That's what I'm going after." And so some of this boils down to being able to just recognize I'm going to take the hit for this, and that's part of my path in married life, and I needed to start seeing it as such that, how do I just make it ... And again, I come back to this again, Pam, because I think this is maybe what helped me in regards to our dynamic.

Corey Allan:
And obviously the burden is different on each end of this equation with the higher desire and the lower desire and there's no hierarchy on this burden of one's not better or bigger or stronger or worse than the others because there's no hierarchy in pain in that regard and struggle, but it's seeing it as me starting to come to grips with it's a both and changed it, because I have to look at it through the lens of instigating something, keeping it on the forefront or the topic of the conversation or part of our dynamic means you feel the pressure, even when I'm just trying to be a good lead, set a good tone that isn't directly tied to sex, although if it was offered, it wouldn't be turned down, and there's the rub.

Pam Allan:
Right, right.

Corey Allan:
Or not the rub, depending on how it might unfold.

Pam Allan:
Depending on. Right.

Corey Allan:
Too soon? Okay. But it's seeing it as that's just changing my framework of it's not an either or. I don't just do this because it's this or that. No, it's both. And she picks up on it. You pick up on it. But then there's a couple of things that he also points out that are phrases to at least land on for a second with all of this.

Corey Allan:
So he made the quote of, "The problem with this is that when I spent an afternoon or evening trying to warm her up to the idea with just little loving texts, acts of service, flirtatious glances," I'm curious, Pam, that are those clear enough? Because there is an element of, yeah, that's endearing feelings. That's nice affection, but it's not into the world of sexual.

Pam Allan:
Potentially. Potentially. I would think that she would know what he's trying to lead to.

Corey Allan:
I would too, but I would also wonder, what if that fills up perfection cup and that's enough? It doesn't bring about a, "Oh yeah, now I'm turned on sexually," because this is that idea that sex does not happen by accident in married life, that it has to be instigated and whoever actually does the instigating has really exposed themselves in what their desires and interests and wants are in that moment.

Pam Allan:
Well, it could be that. It could be that maybe it doesn't fill up her affection cup. Maybe that's not the way she likes to receive it, and so it's not even something that's a deal for her. It's like, "Oh, okay." You shared on the air many times, you would call me at the office, right? "Oh, I just want to touch base. I want you to know I'm thinking of you." For me, that's not a thing, right? I'm in the middle of stuff at work so sometimes that was just an interruption when I'm in the middle of something. And that maybe sounds harsh, that maybe sounds like I'm being ugly, but people react to different things and some things are enticing and some-

Corey Allan:
And some things work one time and then they don't another time because of who we are and circumstances and context.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, so it'd be interesting to know from her side, what do those things do for her?

Corey Allan:
Fair. That's a good question to at least ask. This goes back to a little bit of what Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife brought up when she was on the air just a couple of weeks ago of having that question of, "What's it like having sex with me? What's a sexual experience like with me?" That could be another question. It could be similar. My attempts at instigating and initiating this, what's that like with me? To at least get that data of, where do I clean that up a little bit, maybe speak a little ... be a better student, but also recognize this is still me trying to express it? Because he makes the comment, and this is where I want to end the conversation about this, that, "I can't stop my body language from giving her the impression that she's just disappointed me, which results in her feeling guilty, which is the last thing that I should be making her feel." First off, we don't make people feel anything. That's their choice.

Pam Allan:
True.

Corey Allan:
Okay? And so just coming at this straightforward, that, "I can't stop my body language from giving her the impression that she's just disappointed me." She has just disappointed you. That's just the reality of the dynamic.

Pam Allan:
Okay. Okay. But I mean, we've talked about multiple times, don't mope.

Corey Allan:
No. Well-

Pam Allan:
Right? So I don't know what his body language is.

Corey Allan:
Fair.

Pam Allan:
And so he's recognizing-

Corey Allan:
And there's things that can exacerbate and worsen it.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely.

Pam Allan:
So the way we react sets the stage for the next part.

Corey Allan:
Totally, but it does not ... This is the both and. It does not diminish the fact that yes, I'm disappointed. Even if I handle it well-

Pam Allan:
True.

Corey Allan:
... there's still disappointment. And that's what you pointed out at the beginning of this with this idea of even if you handle it well as the lower desire, I could still feel guilty. Absolutely, you can. That exists.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Corey Allan:
And so how do we start recognizing some of the dynamic of our own growth is each party handling their side of it better, and at the same time, giving room for my spouse to handle their side of it better? Which means if she can ... Just look at this from a pure behavioralist context ... If she can feel guilty and show that as a way of keeping him at bay, that's a good move too because he doesn't want to make her feel guilty, so now he pulls back.

Pam Allan:
So she just would overtly say, "Oh, I feel so guilty," because she's doing this?

Corey Allan:
Right, right. I mean, all of these things, because this is that stuff that we have to recognize, all of it is both and. I mean, this is one of the things that just played out in us that it's just a statement, because I hear this from a lot of clients too, and this is why it comes to my mind, this idea of as the day is unfolding and there's been an idea that sex likely could possibly occur because there's been interaction and it seems like, "Okay, all it's going to take is just an overt move to make it happen," but as we're winding down, in your case as the lower desire, Pam, you would say something like, "Man, I'm really tired. It's been a long day. I'm just ready to go to bed," that's a covert statement of, "Don't come after me tonight," but it's also not a clear statement of, "I'm not interested tonight."

Pam Allan:
No, it's not.

Corey Allan:
It's kind of that ambiguous ... And I think the way the brain is, all of those things in a relational context, there's both ands in there. And it's recognizing on that route, everything's moves. And so if you look at life through that lens, you start to realize, okay, if my job as the higher desire, if I kind of have got into this default mode of, "I just don't want my lower desire spouse to feel guilty about their rejection of me," then I've just set myself in even worse of a stalemate, as well as my spouse in a bad stalemate, because now you get the other side of that if you go to the extreme of, "Well, you never make a move. You never make me feel good," and it's just, hold on. We're both getting nailed with this thing without recognizing this is the sophistication of how communication goes on in a context of a system like this.

Corey Allan:
And so seeing it as, how do I make it to where her impression isn't that she's just disappointed me is recognizing, absorb that hit of yes, she has just disappointed you, but absorb that well, which is what you're pointing out, but then also realize, "Yeah, I'm disappointed." And if she crumbles or feels guilty or whatever, what's on her to have to figure out how she wants to deal with that.

Pam Allan:
It is, but that doesn't mean you don't care in love. It doesn't mean that you don't care that she might feel guilty. It's a, "Okay. Well, that's how you are, but I'm still going to love you. I'm still here. You want to meet in the morning? You want to wake me up in the morning? Would it be better for you then?" Something along those lines.

Corey Allan:
Yeah. That offers up opportunities and options to transfer how it goes, because this goes into the idea of how sex is a long game.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Corey Allan:
But I think we have to realize that on a theoretical level ... Let's see. I guess we can kind of ... Maybe this helps land this ship. On a theoretical level, we all want and long for that romantic, free flow, obsessive longing kind of a thing that we co-create together.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
Right? That's the bliss that is a percentage of what married life is. The opposite of that is dealing with the tension in a negative way between us where we both spiral, right? We're both feeding off each other, and that's the same thing going on. It's just in a negative context. But it's the exact same process. It's just icky and painful. And that's where it starts to then come back to this idea of, what is my marriage teaching me, right? What am I being presented with in this moment that I need to address better?

Corey Allan:
And if I can look at it that way, I can change it if it's negative and confront it and let each side of the equation handle what needs to be handled. That's on theirs, because again, a basic human trait to me is we don't make people feel anything. It's their choice, so we got to recognize that. We can change it on the negative, and then in the moments we're experiencing the positive, my best thing is to continue doing what's my responsibility to keep that flow going, because they don't make me feel all euphoric either. It's an experience that's co-created, but I choose how I operate in that context. And so I've got to see it as, what's my side of this and how am I doing it well, as well as how am I just handling the stuff that comes along with it because I can't hide it because it's a both and?

Corey Allan:
Well, Pam, it's been fun to do a whole show with you.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, it's nice to be back here. We've had a lot of guests lately.

Corey Allan:
We have, which some of this is strategic because this all coincided with the end of tax season.

Pam Allan:
Sure.

Corey Allan:
And so one of the best things we can do for our relationship is not add a lot of additional time that we need to each carve out, specifically you need to out when you have such an ethic and a drive to just do right with the people that you get to help-

Pam Allan:
Yeah, I miss being here with you, though, so it's nice to here.

Corey Allan:
... and deal with. But I love having you on the air because just the fact of what we talked about in the extended and how we can read an email and get parts of it and you're going down a path that's like, "I didn't read it that way at all."

Pam Allan:
Right, right. Totally opposite views.

Corey Allan:
And one of the things that happens in the theoretical world when I get other experts on the air is we can have disparate views over, "I see it this way, I see it that way," and it's just like, "Yeah, okay," but when it happens between you and I, it's like, "Uh-oh, wait."

Pam Allan:
How are we going to handle that? Uh-oh.

Corey Allan:
Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio where, yeah, we will disagree about things. That's okay. If we left something undone and you disagree, let us know, 214-702-9565 or feedback@sexymarriageradio.com. So wherever you are, whatever you've been doing to take some time out of your week each week to spend it with us, we're grateful that you do. We'll see you next time.