Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, smr.fm. You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where it's a big day here in the SMR Nation and the studio that for 10 years has been right where we're sitting in the den of our home.

Pam Allan: And we've celebrated 10 years. We celebrate it a little bit tonight.

Corey Allan: It was fun, but woke up today and had signs from our kids celebrating like we do with birthdays. But we'll get to that just a little bit.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Honor what's coming. But one of the things we do a Sexy Marriage Radio is we try to speak to where the nation wants to go and what's going on with them and let's listen to inaudible radio that's been going on. because it's been three and a half years you've been in the co-host chair with me.

Pam Allan: Yeah, it's been great.

Corey Allan: Which has been fantastic. And we don't always set the agenda. We have the nation help us set the agenda and they call us at (214) 702-9565 or they email us at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com, or they can even create a voicemail on their phone, like just a audio recording and email it to us. Or like today I'm going to try out... We're just going to ask a fun with today.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Just kind of see-

Pam Allan: I like fun.

Corey Allan: ... how this goes. That you do. But if you like what's going on here at Sexy Marriage Radio, we ask that you help us spread the word. And the way you can do that is you can jump on iTunes, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Google, Play, whatever you choose to listen, however it is you listen, rate and review the show, leave a comment, help us spread the word. Holiday seasons are around the corner, trick or treating is that the end of this month, so as you're going around and trick or treating, grab somebody's phone, subscribe them to SMR.

Pam Allan: You know we ought to have stickers or little treats made so people can put that in a... Sexy marriage radio stickers in the bags crosstalk kids. Here give this to your mom.

Corey Allan: Advertising, baby. That is the way it goes, because what we want to do is try to help create beautiful things in marriage. And speaking of beautiful, one of the things that's fascinating to me, I just came across this this week is we have an issue with kind of the wiring of humans in a sense of we are all way too fast and sped up and we don't absorb and take in beauty. It's real difficult to do because... Do you know, on average, how long does a person spend visiting the rim of the Grand Canyon? What do you guess?

Pam Allan: I think you drive all the way there and on average, you're actually standing, looking out there on average, I bet it's like 10 minutes.

Corey Allan: Well, 17.

Pam Allan: Isn't that nuts?

Corey Allan: That you're soaking in that kind of a beauty, which was all inspiring the time we were there. We were there for three days for big chunks because we didn't camp... We weren't there the whole time, but we camped right by it.

Pam Allan: Yeah. We had a lot more than 17 minutes, but I see it when you get the big tour buses and all those and if you just stay in those central functions where everybody congregates.

Corey Allan: Then you're running to get out of it. But it's one of those things. How do you take it all in? And one of the things that's been so much fun of doing Sexy Marriage Radio is trying to help people in general see something else going on and take it all in, reframe it and soak it in. What's my role? What do I really have? Why do I be grateful for what I already have? Look at the ground we've already gained. L look at the progress. There's so many things and stories we've had over the years that just confirmed the fact that how do I get out of my own way to see what can become? Because that's the mission of Sexy Marriage Radio is we want to unlock and reframe conversations better so that you can experience the best sex possible and the best marriage possible.
We're coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is a little celebration. We're going to honor the 10 years because that's definitely an anchor point that's worth acknowledging. And then we've also got an email that's come in. That'll be a fun one on a topic that's a little edgy. So 10 years, let's talk about BDSM.

Pam Allan: All right.

Corey Allan: And then on the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer and there are no ads, you can subscribe at smr.fm/smracademy. We're going to have a dialogue on what are the secrets to a fantastic sex life for the people involved in a marriage. So it's not a global, it's the individuals, or if we want to be a little more edgy, what's the secrets of those that get laid well?

Pam Allan: Perfect.

Corey Allan: All that's coming up on today's show. So babe, it's been 10 years this week.

Pam Allan: And job well done, Corey.

Corey Allan: Thank you.

Pam Allan: Couldn't be more proud of what it is you're doing with this and just the effect that it's had over the last decade.

Corey Allan: And this has been fun because today, the day we're recording, it is the day we're celebrating the beginning of this whole adventure. And so took me to dinner with the family, had some cake, there were signs put up this morning.

Pam Allan: We even wore birthday hats.

Corey Allan: Birthday hats. And a little candle, but it's one of those things that's truly worth marking the occasion because it was 10 years ago when this hit the airways. And it was so great finding this one when searching for knowing that this was coming. I'd already talked to Gina who helped get this thing launched with me and came across this when I was just searching for a royalty free music and came across this song and I'm like, that's just perfect-

Pam Allan: I miss it. There's a part of me that wants to go back to that one.

Corey Allan: ... for where we were going with the idea of we want to talk about sex and how do you make it good? How do you make it vibrant? How do you make it engaging, specifically in marriage? And so this would not be possible without a lot of things.

Pam Allan: Right. A lot of people helping.

Corey Allan: One being the people that have been on the mic with me. Gina Paris, Shannon Etheridge, and you, plus guest after guests after guest after guest that's been on the mic to help make this thing happen.

Pam Allan: And Jessica who's helped you get all those guests.

Corey Allan: And the team

Pam Allan: And Jessica who's helping you. Shiloh who's been there in history.

Corey Allan: The platform that's born now and the dialogues that take place there and the interactions that happen. And then last, and certainly not least is the nation. It's the listeners that have been through with this all the way through and have spoken up and ask questions and supported each other and encouraged each other. And in some regards kind of finding this breath of fresh air of, oh, I can ask these questions here.

Pam Allan: Right. Exactly.

Corey Allan: Sweet. I'm not going to go ask my pastor this kind of a question or what about this? And so it is hopefully a place that we continually strive to be a trusted resource that will speak well and honoring of marriage and what it can become as human beings and as God's children. And that's been our mission and that continues to be our mission. And one of the cool things too, is the fact that other people have jumped on board with this to add their voice, to help prior emailers or callers, even though we've maybe already addressed it. There's still times when other people speak into what may be going on.

Corey Allan: I love the voices that jump into the whole conversation that just are in it to help other people, because we've said all through the decade that we've been doing this so far, we've said if you're facing an issue, so is somebody else, so speak up because other people can speak into it as well as us. And so a huge thank you goes to the SMR Nation for showing up each and every week over the decade. And then here is to the decade to come.

Pam Allan: That's right.

Corey Allan: The art of marriage is really the art of keeping up to date with your partner, of staying on track with your own in each other's life goals as they emerge, exist and change. It's about supporting each other and staying connected emotionally, intellectually, physically, and spiritually. Marsha Berger, LMFT. The great marriage doesn't happen by accident. Deeper connection with your spouse doesn't happen by accident either. Have you reached the point in your marriage where there's a slow creep of discontent or disconnect? When was the last time you talked with your spouse about anything other than the schedule, work or kids? What if there was a way to be reminded on a weekly basis to touch base with your spouse? The state of our union helps you remember and discover what brought you together in the first place. It's a tool designed to help couples keep the important from being replaced by the immediate, plus this works from your own phone. 52 reminders, deepen your conversation, dream and plan together. Go to smr.fm/union. Connect on a deeper level today.
So there's an email that came in the inbox feedback@sexymarriageradio.com that says, what are your thoughts on Christians participating in BDSM? I've been told quite a bit of it. And personally, I don't get the appeal, but I have friends who are into some of the softer versions of it. I have my thoughts, but I've never heard a reasonable Christian viewpoint on it though. So what do you think?

Pam Allan: What do you think?

Corey Allan: Well, first off, anytime we start getting into the arena of what you could call sex and sexuality and the energies they're in on the edges, a lot of people have these guard rails in place that they've never really questioned or asked. Where do they come from? Why do I have this? Why do I have this belief?

Pam Allan: Okay, sorry, I'm cutting you off here. I think there's probably a lot of people listening that are like, ah, I've heard of BDSM but I wouldn't even really know what it is.

Corey Allan: Okay. So it's bondage, and then the D is either discipline or domination, it just depends on which kind of paradigm lane you're going down, sadism and masochism. Okay. So sadism is where you derive pleasure from somebody from pain in others. Masochism is where you derive pleasure for pain in yourself. You're masochistic. So it is one of those areas where you're talking about the underside of relationships. A lot of us as people, we all have a nasty side, we all have touches of this, which I'm going to pivot to in just a minute. But there is an element of playing in that polarity of power, submission, erotic. There's some polarity that comes into this where you both kind of play a role if you will that is not typically what a lot of people like to dabble in.
And so is there anything biblically, as far as scripture goes? I have not come across something that specifically says no, because there's a lot of gray and some of the nuances where we as Christians struggle, or we, as Christians have put up a guard rail that I've just never really even questioned. And this is where we encourage as SMR as a nation, to just ask yourself, where did these scripts come from? And what do I really believe in? Is it serving me where I am now? How do I make sense of this? Because it comes down to your own personal relationship and your own marriage relationship because when two consenting adults are involved and are interested in kind of venturing into some of these edges, okay, venture. But again, this is anytime you're doing something that's a little more in the taboo world or in the risque world, because there can be some harm that comes from this because while there can be an element of I get a lot of pleasure out of the physical pain.
There's some psychological pain that can be in there that maybe festers and brings up some other things that needs to be addressed or there's some emotional pain. And so there needs to be tremendous amounts of communication. That's why the whole world of BDSM typically has safe words. If you haven't established that ahead of time-

Pam Allan: You're in trouble.

Corey Allan: ... then you're setting up scenarios where it does get into disrespectful, degrading, demeaning, which for one partner could heighten it because they're the ones who are really seeking it. But for the other, it causes real severe damage.

Pam Allan: Would not be in line with Christian.

Corey Allan: No, absolutely it's not something that under a respectful Christian belief in ethic, that's not the way we treat people. It's not the way we interact with people.

Pam Allan: Right. Especially a spouse. There's... Well, I'll let you keep-

Corey Allan: No, no. So all that's to say is I love the fact that over the decade now we have been privy to and help lead in a lot of ways, conversations and thought processes that maybe you don't typically have in marriage. It helps us navigate and become better people because just as much as we have grown through these guard rails as people, these boundaries that have been put in place, whether it's from a culture, a religious edict or fundamental belief system, or even just naivete and anxiety. I don't even want to venture into that. That scares me. The more I can recognize, okay, wait, I can handle and tolerate some of that discomfort of exploring it, the discomfort meaning of the anxiety that it produces or the uncertainty it produces, the more I can either grow and also solidify that's not something that does anything for me.
So I could kind of check it off the list of I'm not interested in that, which then can be a clarifying moment for a marriage relationship, because then it puts the dynamic of, you know what, honey? No, for celebrating 10 years, I am not doing X. And at least then that's a more clear statement of, okay, I could be hanging onto man, maybe this is the night. This is a big deal. We can, rather than... No, it's very clear. So now I need to live in that context and that pressure that's existing in a marriage regardless anyway.

Pam Allan: Right. I need to live with honoring the spouse. And back to the initial email that the gentleman brought up. I've got to trust my spouse in their response as well. When you're addressing this topic with the spouse and is this two consenting adults? We have to be able to trust that spouse as well. So we can't have one spouse that's not going to be truthful in what it is that they are and aren't willing to do, because then you're going to end up with a lot of hurt potentially, physically and mentally.

Corey Allan: Right. And it is one of those things that I keep coming across is this idea of any of the stuff that happens in the sexual and erotic world that has two adults trying to participate and collaborate within it, they have typically reached that point because they have dramatically upped their communication patterns between themselves. Because they've really navigated this because you can't just... These are sprung on a relationship dynamic unilaterally. One person brings it up. I really want to try this. You don't typically... That's an exposing move because you really risk that. How dare you? Right? But the other is you start navigating and talking through, and this is an empowering stance if you think about it in a lot of ways, and we do this in all areas of life, but this particularly seems to ring true of having conversations of how do we explore this while both still feeling safe?
Because I don't give full safety reigns over to my partner. I have to hold onto them myself too, meaning I'll speak up and I'll do what I need to for me in those moments, knowing it will dramatically alter a situation, but I'm still going to do so. That's the collaboration that comes into this. But I want to pivot the conversation into something that's a little more global in this arena, because this is the idea that Schnarch posited, first time I came across it was in his book Passionate Marriage where it's normal marital sadism. And this is some of the stuff I love speaking on the most at the getaways.

Pam Allan: People have just these aha moments. They're like, oh gosh, I do that.

Corey Allan: Because people don't think... I think a lot of times us humans, and even maybe us Christians believe we are a lot more good than we really are, that this doesn't exist among good God honoring people.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Thank goodness for Christ.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. But I was going to read a couple paragraphs from Schnarch's Passionate Marriage because I think it captures this idea real cleanly that I want to just talk briefly about it. That he just says, "We all have a nasty side, not the dirty sex type of nasty, which so many cannot harness. Nasty as in you're not a very good person. There's a side to all of us that's bad or evil. All of us have a touch of it. Some have more. We all torment those we love while feigning unawareness." Which I love that phrase.

Pam Allan: Feigning unawareness.

Corey Allan: I act like I am unaware of the pain and discomfort-

Pam Allan: That I'm causing you.

Corey Allan: See you next time. "Marriage is perhaps the place we do it most frequently with impunity. We withhold the sweetness of sex and intimacy while acting like we want to please. And in the course of this deceit, we pervert our sexual potential. Early American philosopher Thomas Paine said that 'Infidelity, as in religious infidel is not about what we do or don't believe, it's professing to believe what we do not.'"
I'm going to let that sink in for just a second because this goes back to a conversation where we've talked about the idea of rather than looking at infidelity and betrayal, how do you look at this through the lens of fidelity? How are you showing up with all honesty and truth and authenticity in all areas of your life? Because that's where I want to go with marriage and how sex is a people growing process. It's helping us grow. And one of the ways I need to recognize it is how do I practice some of these things on the edges that probably aren't under the label of BDSM, but they are. It's normal marital sadism, it's masochism. I'm really harsh on myself, and then secretly I kind of enjoy that. I like when it crumbles. And even though it's devastating, so there's a component of stuff going on and normal marital sadism plays out in the little things that you do to get under each other's skin and you know you're doing it.

Pam Allan: Yeah. But I don't care. Or maybe I enjoy it.

Corey Allan: I think it's both of those can happen. And the little safer example I use when talking about this, because those of you that are listening and have not come across this, I'm assuming one of you in your relationship, one partner in the relationship will be a part of this dynamic. I am the type that has the cork, that when there's light switches that have multiples on it, at the end of the day, I like them both up or down. Don't like them separate.

Pam Allan: Yes. He wants both switches which going the same direction.

Corey Allan: Right. And maybe since I'm trying to justify or defend this, it's a bigger issue than I'm thinking it is in my own mind, but it's not like it throws me off for the day if they're not. But I notice it.

Pam Allan: It's an innocent example.

Corey Allan: Right. I noticed this thing and there have been times where my wife has walked past one of them and flip the switch and then goes to the end of the hallway or the room to where the other switch is and flips that knowing that will make them off of this pattern and maybe giggles to herself out loud, or maybe giggles inside or something. There's some intentionality to it.

Pam Allan: crosstalk.

Corey Allan: And that's an example of it. It's not like it's a huge sadistic move, but it is a little quirky kind of thing that-

Pam Allan: That just sounds like a funny little joke to me, but give me an example. So that was a practical joke I did that isn't really sadistic in my mind, that's more of a ha-ha, I want to make him uneasy and giggle a little bit.

Corey Allan: Okay, but there's undercurrent in there. In practical jokes and inside jokes, there's truth in every one.

Pam Allan: There is. Yes.

Corey Allan: And some of it plays on and prays on an element of discomfort or, eh or I know this will get them, or, yeah, and that's the element we're talking about here.

Pam Allan: So give me one though that might be, I don't know, to me might be a little more, not just I'm trying to get a giggle out of it, but I know will really-

Corey Allan: So you know there's an actual, real tension to it.

Pam Allan: ... tick you off.

Corey Allan: Okay. Well, then what comes to my mind is what has been part of our history is this idea of I have been a professed butt slapper on the air. I've talked about this, that I love it.

Pam Allan: Yeah. My butt, not anybody elses.

Corey Allan: And I knew I started having a problem when our kids started doing that when they were really toddlers and then Will would come by and slap you on the butt too. And it's like, okay, hold on, that's being watched and modeled. We need to kind of make sure that's not always what I'm trying to teach. Because people are watching. But one of the things that has evolved, there have been times and seasons for sure, in the past where you were like, please stop.
And some of it would be a little more forcefully stated. Some of it would be a little more lightly stated. And that's where the vagaries of I don't know, is that playful? Is that not? But as it continued in the past, there's an element of, I knew you didn't like it but I would keep doing it at times in the past. There's an element of what's underneath that? What's the motivation? Is it because I know she's not going to like it, or is it because I want it and I don't care what you think? And the fact that she won't like it, if I go deeper into this, there's an undercurrent and an underbelly in there that maybe it's not full on sadistic, but there's a nastiness to it. There's a dismissal to it.
There's a something in there. That's kind of what we're talking about. And over the time, this has shifted for us to where the dynamic is different in that the slaps don't happen. The gropes might, but...

Pam Allan: Bring those on. That's okay.

Corey Allan: But it's that idea of, okay, that's the pressure of it happening between us and recognizing that, okay, it's not always just as clean cut as my preference versus your preference. There's also a, what's underneath it for me and why I want to keep doing it when I know it's not something you're necessarily interested in? That's an entryway into what we're talking about on this.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Speaker 6: Hey, Corey and Pam, listened to episode 540, the extended portion. And just wanted to acknowledge you guys for the opportunity that you took to take on this whole conversation, even within your own selves of the Lord desire and higher desire and kind of what that means. And to do that in the pretty public fashion you did, whether in the coffee shop, whoever was listening to you or for our benefit as well.
And I'm aware of how so often we, as couples will choose to really not take on our own stuff. And some people that may be listening, maybe thinking that you guys completely have it all together. I know even sometimes when we're just thinking about ourselves and who might we be to offer a word of advice or a word of something that we have learned knowing that we certainly don't have it together in our relationship, but just so appreciated the conversation that you guys had, the courage, the boldness to take on this topic that obviously is still being processed out even for you guys. And just so appreciate the opportunity to be the fly on the wall that you guys had that conversation. Thanks.

Corey Allan: And we're going to leave it at that. I love it when people jump in and continue conversations like we had with leading the show, but also then kind of give us the feedback of, hey, it's nice knowing that the people behind the mic don't always have it altogether too, because that is a completely true statement.

Pam Allan: Well, hopefully everybody that's out there doing podcasts has some sort of experience and a journey where they learn something and they're continuing to learn.

Corey Allan: We all need to be learnerers

Pam Allan: Learnerers. Yes.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Pam Allan: Dr. Learnerer here on the mic.

Corey Allan: This has been Sexy Marriage Radio. Again, thank you so much for the decade. Here's to the decades to come, because this is so much fun doing this with you, baby.

Pam Allan: I love it.

Corey Allan: I love that we get to speak into what's going on and then helping people, and they let us know by calling us at 214-702-9565 or feedback@sexymarriageradio.com. So we'll see you next time.