Corey Allan:
Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio where we're having straightforward, honest conversations about what goes on in your married life. Because what we try to do here with the Sexy Marriage Radio empire is frame conversations about what goes on behind your closed doors, so that it can be what you want it to be as you see it, and you dream it, and you desire it, not as we say you should do it or shouldn't do it.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, so many people are like, "You do know what goes behind my closed doors. Really? How did you... You guys are just speaking to me in that one."

Corey Allan:
And it's also interesting because there is so much of a, "I just want to know is this normal," or "Is this wrong," or "Is this okay?" And I want the Sexy Marriage Radio nation to know that question is a normal thing. It's a reality of, "Am I weird? Am I perverted? Am I abnormal in some of the things I like, or don't like, or want to do or you know?" So it's just recognizing, man, we are all weird little people that are perverted and abnormal. That's why we like hanging out with other people that are weird and perverted and abnormal because then we don't feel out of place.

Pam Allan:
All right.

Corey Allan:
That's where the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation comes in. Because I think as a whole, the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation is just trying to have the best sex that they can because they want the best marriage that they can too. Those two go together, right? That married life and sex, those things go hand-in-hand. How we do one is how we do the other and vice versa. And so what we want to do is just help it overall be better for you.

Corey Allan:
And alongside my wife, Pam as always, we're here and we want to hear from you. The way you can let us know what's going on in your mind, or your questions, or if you've heard something from one of the shows that spoke to you and you've got a word or a message to that call in, or that email, call in and let us know via a voicemail as well. The number would be (214) 702-9565 is how you can get to the front of the line on what we talk about and where we go.

Corey Allan:
You can also email us at feedback@sexy marriageradio.com because I can almost guarantee it that if you've got a question or an issue or something going on in your marriage, you are not alone in that. There are other people that are experiencing it, or have experienced, or will experience it because normal, regular people have problems in their sex life. Things just change and evolve and shift. And so what we want to do is just equip you to know there is hope.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, there is nothing new under the sun.

Corey Allan:
No, there really isn't. And one of the ways you can also find out more about how really there is nothing new under the sun on a deeper level is joining Academy. The Sexy Marriage Radio Academy exists to just go deeper with the conversation within the context of a private group of people that really are supportive and helpful for each other because they're looking for it for themselves, but they're also looking for it to help other people.

Pam Allan:
Yeah. There is a lot of solid, solid folks in that Academy. It's been great to see conversations and hear them on the calls.

Corey Allan:
And just this week was our monthly coaching call for the Academy members that are all the way in with the Academy. That's where they get an hour, hour and a half a week or a month with us just to, let's talk, where do you want to go, what's specifically going on with you? And so it becomes a coaching call that's real applicable for whatever the situation can be.

Corey Allan:
And that was even one of the things that rang true from a member saying, "I've just really loved the respectful, supportive, encouraging tone of the conversations that take place here. In the Slack channel, that's a private members only chat. And then on the calls that there truly is, someone can voice a concern or an issue or, "Hey, this is going on. Anybody else got anything that's happened or similar?" People chime in and say, "Oh yeah, what about this? This happened for us. This helped us." It truly becomes this supportive involvement that Pam and I are involved with, obviously, but the members are there too. And everybody is helping everybody.

Corey Allan:
So if you want to join us, which I'm a personal plea to do so, you get the extended content of every episode. Plus, if you go all the way with us, you get monthly coaching calls, private members only chat, there is some webinars that are in there. There is a lot of information that could truly help you that's just for members only. You can find that at smr.fm/smracademy.

Corey Allan:
Coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio, I had the opportunity and the privilege to have a conversation with Emily Nagoski, author of Come as You Are, is quite a mover and shaker in the sexuality world right now, is a really good thought provoking speaker and so we finally, thanks to Jessica, tracked her down and got her on the air with us.

Pam Allan:
Nice. Now Come as You Are?

Corey Allan:
That is-

Pam Allan:
C-O-M-E?

Corey Allan:
Yes. It's largely for women's sexuality, but it's also... Well, I can't give it away. It's what we talk about in the free episode coming up.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, listen to the episode.

Corey Allan:
It's a great book. I was introduced to it by a couple that came to a getaway a couple of years back. They were at the Sexy Marriage Radio Getaway. They pulled me aside during one of the mealtimes and just hanging out the hotel and she said, "Do you know who Emily Nagoski is?" I'm like, "No, tell me about her." Because anytime something spoke to somebody as part of The Academy or the getaway or The Nation, I want to know.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Corey Allan:
Because I know we don't have a corner on this market. There is a lot of good helpful voices out there. And so she introduced me to it and she said, "This is one of the best books I've read." And so I took her at her word and went and did some more exploration and lo and behold that is some good information in there. So this is a great conversation to have with Emily on just dealing with normalizing life and our sexual struggles and have responsive desire, reactive context. There is all kinds of different stuff that we're going to go in this, in the free section-

Pam Allan:
I'm looking forward to it.

Corey Allan:
... with The Academy, of the show today. And then on the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer and there is no ads, you could subscribe at smr.fm. Emily and I continue the conversation, but this time we get into a little bit of the darker side because she actually has a Ted Talk out there that's about Sexual Nonconcordance.

Pam Allan:
What does that mean?

Corey Allan:
Which is where your body biologically is reacting as if you're aroused, but the rest of your body is saying no.

Pam Allan:
Oh.

Corey Allan:
This would be similar to an adolescent, pre-pubescent, early adolescent male that gets an erection at the most inopportune times.

Pam Allan:
Okay.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Pam Allan:
Okay, that makes sense.

Corey Allan:
That there is an element of-

Pam Allan:
It's like it's oxymoron going on with your body.

Corey Allan:
Right, but it's a thing that she's done a lot of research on to see, yes, this is a true thing that happens. That there is times where my mind is just not getting there, but my body is saying I'm ready and I'm interested, and that can actually cause some damage and some trauma to you. And so we start talking all about that in the extended content.

Pam Allan:
That'll be good.

Corey Allan:
All that's coming up on today's show.

Corey Allan:
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Corey Allan:
Well, joining me for this episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, it's a privilege to be, have Emily Nagoski joining me. She is most well known, as far as I'm concerned, Emily, and I know I might be diminishing some of the breadth of your work, but Come as You Are, the book that you published, when was it, when did that come out?

Emily Nagoski:
It came out in 2015 and yeah, I would say it's sort of like the thing.

Corey Allan:
Okay. But that's where you did become the thing. I also have heard from several ladies that have been part of Sexy Marriage Radio Nation that, that has spoken and done so much for them that it just became [crosstalk 00:10:16] this whole, Dr. Emily has got to be on the show with us. And so I am excited that you're finally here. Hooray!

Emily Nagoski:
Yeah.

Corey Allan:
So Emily, welcome. Thank you for taking some time out to join us today.

Emily Nagoski:
It's literally my favorite thing to do, almost literally my favorite thing to do.

Corey Allan:
Well then, let's not waste any time. I'm curious because anytime I get a chance to talk to some people that have really had profound impact on other people, especially in the world of sex and sexuality, how did you find this as part of your wheelhouse? How did you land here?

Emily Nagoski:
I got lucky over and over and over again. It started when I was 18. I was a big nerd in school. So when I got to college I didn't know what I wanted to be, but I knew I'd be going to grad school, so I wanted some volunteer work on my resume to make me look like a good candidate for grad school.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely.

Emily Nagoski:
And a guy who lived on my floor said, "Hey, come be a peer health educator with me." And I was like, "Sure, I'll be a peer, I like health, why not?" So I applied and I got accepted and I started getting trained to go in a residence hall to talk about many domains of wellness including nutrition and sleep, but also condoms, contraception and consent. And wow, I was one of only two people in that room who during the training around the sexuality stuff when we started using genital words, penis, vulva, clitoris, I did not go [inaudible 00:11:53]. It just felt sort of normal and natural to me. I thought, Hm, maybe it means something that this is not making me break down the way it does other people. And then I got deeper and deeper into that work.

Emily Nagoski:
To my sexual health education work I added sexual violence prevention education and then sexual violence crisis response and the more I did that work... So even though my degree is in psychology with minors in cognitive science and philosophy and I had this plan to be a clinical neuropsychologist, I loved the brain stuff, I wanted to work with people with traumatic brain injury and stroke, all that intellectual stuff didn't make me like myself as a person the way the work I was doing around sexuality did, so that's the path I chose.

Corey Allan:
I get it and I'm glad. I'm grateful you did choose it and that it even shows you in some regards because-

Emily Nagoski:
Yeah. Sometimes you feel nudged in a direction. You try a lot of doors and then there is the one that opens and you're like, well, I guess this is the direction I'm going [inaudible 00:12:58].

Corey Allan:
Right. But the thing I've appreciated most from the work and the talks and the different things, all the stuff that you have out there is, you have a goal in large part of trying to normalize some things.

Emily Nagoski:
Absolutely.

Corey Allan:
And that is such a valid goal and necessary. I would really love it if you would speak to, because this is one of those things that with Sexy Marriage Radio, my wife is my cohost normally, those of you that are in Sexy Marriage Radio Nation understand this, but anytime I get a chance to get a fellow researcher or clinician or science person that's of the female persuasion, I love that because now I've got another side that can go carry a weight just because she's female. Right? That it's just different.

Emily Nagoski:
Yeah, we do bring this different perspective.

Corey Allan:
Totally.

Emily Nagoski:
When women started becoming sex researchers in the '80s actually, it changed the nature of the research because they automatically brought with them the assumption that like, hey, what if being a woman is not inherently a problem?

Corey Allan:
Exactly. It's not something that has to be solved.

Emily Nagoski:
Fixed, yeah, right.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
I know this is crazy, but just stay with me, what if women are not identical to men?

Corey Allan:
Oh, heaven forbid.

Emily Nagoski:
Right.

Corey Allan:
Actually, no, that's a great thing, if that's the case. So I'm curious.

Emily Nagoski:
So the first thing I normalize is creating space for diversity. People just vary from each other and they change across their lifespan too. You should expect there to be differences in, between you and your partner and you should expect your own sexuality and your partner's sexuality to evolve across your relationship.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely. And so if we were to take a moment to speak specifically to the women when it comes to their sexuality, their sex drive, their sexual responsiveness, what are some of the main myths or topics that keep coming up that over and over you're like, okay, I keep seeing this, so we've got more we've got to dig deeper into.

Emily Nagoski:
I think the most fundamental idea for a lot of women is learning the brain mechanism that controls sexual response in the first place. It's called the dual control mechanism. Dual because there is two parts to it.

Emily Nagoski:
The first part is the one most of us are already familiar with the accelerator or the gas pedal that notices any sex related information in the environment and it sends the turn on signal. It's everything that you see, hear, smell, touch, taste, or, and this is crucial, think, believe or imagine that your brain codes as somehow related to sexuality and it sends the turn on signal. It's functioning all the time subconsciously, including right now. We're vaguely talking about sex. You've got a vague little bit of turn on signal being sent right now.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
At the same time, in parallel, you have brakes that are noticing all the good reasons not to be turned on.

Corey Allan:
Okay.

Emily Nagoski:
Everything that you see, hear, smell, touch, taste, think, believe or imagine that your brain codes as a potential threat and it sends the turn off signal. So the process of becoming aroused, experiencing pleasure or desire is a dual process of turning on the ons and turning off the offs.

Emily Nagoski:
And I know most of the advice that we get from pop culture when people are struggling around these issues is to add stimulation to the accelerator.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
And that stuff is great if you want to try it, go for it. When people are struggling, it's very rarely the case that there is not enough stimulation to the accelerator. It's almost always that there is too much stimulation to the brake.

Corey Allan:
Okay.

Emily Nagoski:
So I've had a lot of women be like, "There is a brake?" Yes. Stress hits the break. Body image stuff hits the brake. Relationship stuff hits the brake.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
Trauma history hits the break. Cultural messages about sexuality hit the brake. Being worried about being interrupted hits the brake. When you can get rid of that stuff, it frees up the accelerator to do its job.

Corey Allan:
Okay. And so what are some of the best ways to work towards getting rid of or at least... Because I think the way all this strikes me is it's not like we're going to get rid of the brakes entirely. That's chaos, right? Everybody is then always having sex and nothing gets done in the world other than lots of children.

Emily Nagoski:
Right. That's the thing. That's why the brake is so important.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely.

Emily Nagoski:
How we designed our brains. There are times when it's not appropriate to be interested in sex.

Corey Allan:
Absolutely. And so, how do you start limiting because I love the framework of this of just, one, recognizing it. That, yes wait, there is brakes? Absolutely, there are. That's where we're talking about what is it, the context of everything, of what's going on. But how do you start to limit that or after you recognize it?

Emily Nagoski:
So for some people, they can very easily think through their history and identify things that activate their accelerators and things that activate their brakes and then think about what they can do to get rid of some of the stuff that's hitting the brakes when it's appropriate. Well like, you cannot sell your children to the circus, but they probably are pretty big brakes hitters if you have kids.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
So figuring out how do we create a context where we cordon off parenthood and just create space for our couple relationship right now? Stress, how do we create space and time for both people to allow their bodies to move through stress and get to a place of peace and safety inside their bodies? That doesn't just happen spontaneously and automatically. Like, you don't get out of your car after a long and terrible commute and instantaneously feel great.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
You get out of your car after a long terrible commute and your body is still in a state where you go inside and snap at your partner or whatever.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
Making sure everybody in the relationship has a chance to actually deal with the stress itself is important. And you notice I am not talking about things that are like, here are the sexy things that you can do to prepare for a sexual evening together.

Corey Allan:
No.

Emily Nagoski:
This is like creating a life where you feel supported and trusting. Trust is maybe the most important relationship characteristic.

Corey Allan:
Okay, what makes you say that?

Emily Nagoski:
So there is a relationship researcher and therapist named, Sue Johnson who founded emotionally focused therapy. She breaks down trust as the answer to the question, are you there for me? And are in this case is an acronym that stands for emotionally accessible and emotionally responsive and emotionally engaged. So when you turn toward your partner with any sort of vulnerability, you want to know that your partner is going to be there for you. So sex is incredibly vulnerable. You're maybe taking off some clothes and letting somebody see parts of your body that... Oh my God, Olive.

Emily Nagoski:
So sex is very, very vulnerable, taking off clothes and letting people see parts of your body almost no one sees.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
Letting people touch parts of your body almost no one will ever touch. Maybe even letting them put parts of their body inside your body or putting a part of your body inside theirs, this is an enormously vulnerable thing. And if your partner turns toward that vulnerability with anything short of yes and wow and thanks, if they're just like, meh, they're not there for you and that can shut things down. So trust is when your partner is 100% there for your vulnerability.

Corey Allan:
Okay. I like the framework because you're talking about, and again this is what we alluded to just a little bit ago, Emily, that the context matters about all of this.

Emily Nagoski:
Absolutely. Context matters even in really simple ways.

Corey Allan:
Okay, keep going.

Emily Nagoski:
Your state of mind changes the way your brain perceives sensation. So if you're already in a fun, flirty, sexy, playful, trusting, erotic place with your partner, and they start tickling you, tickling is not everybody's favorite, but it could feel fun and lead to other things.

Corey Allan:
Right, right.

Emily Nagoski:
But if that same certain special, someone tries to tickle you while you're in the middle of an argument and you're really angry, how does that tickling feel?

Corey Allan:
It's not the same.

Emily Nagoski:
You slightly want to punch him in the face a little bit, right?

Corey Allan:
Well, I think you can take the word slightly out of it. That's happened.

Emily Nagoski:
This is the puzzle. It's the same sensation. It's the same person-

Corey Allan:
Correct.

Emily Nagoski:
... doing the same stimulation of your body. But because the context is different, your brain state is different, your relationship in that moment is different, your brain interprets that simulation in totally the opposite way, not as something pleasurable to be explored further, but as a potential threat to be avoided.

Emily Nagoski:
I get this question a lot like, "You know, my partner used to love it when I would, in our hot and heavy dating state, like she'd be in the kitchen making dinner for us and I'd go in and kiss her on the place and she'd, you know, just like let dinner burn because who care, yeah. But nowadays, you know, two kids and 10 years down the road, I go into the kitchen while she's making dinner and I kissed her in the certain special places and she's just like, 'Will you go set the table,' so what happened? What's wrong?" It can even change just on a day-to-day basis.

Corey Allan:
Sure.

Emily Nagoski:
That the context is changing. And there is nothing wrong in those situations, nothing broke, the context changed. And so it is normal and healthy that the way your brain responds to that stimulation is different.

Corey Allan:
Okay.

Emily Nagoski:
What it means is that when you get past the hot and heavy falling in love, what you have to do instead is be really deliberate about creating a context that allows your brain to interpret the world as that safe, fun, sexy, pleasurable place.

Corey Allan:
That's interesting because this also adds to the complexity of what goes on in a relationship, in my mind, of when you add a system dynamic to it, that I, we're always reading each other, mapping each other along with the context of how I'm reading myself in that moment. And so there is so many variables that can make me go off the rails rather than, hold on, how do I center myself into this? How do I put context back in context?

Emily Nagoski:
Exactly. How do I respond to the way my partner is responding in a way that isn't all about my expectations and my fears? For people who are gender socialized masculine, right, you get, you're born into a body that makes everybody go, "It's a boy." And then they start laying all these stories on you.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
They start telling you who you're supposed to be as a person and how we can tell you're a good man. And unfortunately, a lot of the stuff that we teach boys who become men is pretty bad for their sex lives.

Corey Allan:
Okay.

Emily Nagoski:
We tell them that the only way they're allowed to access their biological drive for connection [inaudible 00:24:58] connection, so that men are starving for love and connection and deep intimacy, and they've been taught that the only respectable way for them to access that is through sex. So when they try to initiate sex with their partner and their partner says, no, it feels like they're saying no, not just to the sex right now, but to all of that need for intimacy and connection.

Corey Allan:
Yeah. It's the, so much more. So I'm curious because-

Emily Nagoski:
And women-

Corey Allan:
No, keep going, go.

Emily Nagoski:
Oh, boy. We're not taught better messages. It's just different ones.

Corey Allan:
Okay. Which would be what?

Emily Nagoski:
Well, for example, there is a phenomenon that my sister and I call human giver syndrome where when a person is born in a body that makes everybody go, "It's a girl," they raise that person as a girl, which means they are taught to believe that they have a moral obligation to be pretty, happy, calm, generous, and always attentive to the needs of others above their own needs. Their needs do not matter. It is selfish for them to meet their own needs and they are required at all times to meet everyone else's needs.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
So you get these two people into a relationship and they both believe that she has a moral obligation to meet his needs.

Corey Allan:
Right.

Emily Nagoski:
And you get into a situation where she ends up drained and exhausted and needing to distance herself for her survival and then he feels abandoned. And it's because they've both been following the script they were handed when they were born.

Corey Allan:
Right, right, which is a vicious cycle that a lot of couples can get caught up in.

Emily Nagoski:
And a lot of people have to have a reckoning, a moment in their relationship where they realize, we've been following a lot of rules that are not working for us. What if we figured out a different set of rules that worked better in our relationship?

Corey Allan:
I love the use of your word reckoning there because that's exactly what it is. Well, Emily, I could talk about this for a long, long time, but to close out the first part of our segment with the show, I want to give time for you to let everybody else in the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation know how do they find you if they want to know more?

Emily Nagoski:
Oh, the most important thing is the book, Come as You Are and there is now also a Come as You Are Workbook. So if you just want worksheets, you don't want to read 100,000 words of affective neuroscience, you can just like worksheet after worksheet. How do I figure out what context works for me? How do I figure out the transition from mommy brain or work brain into hey, sexy lady brain worksheets, the Come as You Are Workbook.

Corey Allan:
Perfect.

Emily Nagoski:
I'm at emilynagoski.com and that has my calendar where it has all the public events that I'm doing.

Corey Allan:
Perfect. Emily, thank you so much for joining me thus far and I'm excited to about where we're going to go next-

Emily Nagoski:
Me too.

Corey Allan:
... and the next conversation.

Speaker 5:
Hi, Dr. Corey Allan. I was just calling in to respond to the young lady that had called in on episode 453 about her being married really young and just having some issues in her sex life with her husband and I just wanted to let her know that she's not alone and that it gets better. I married my husband at 23 and he was 26. We're celebrating four years of marriage here in April.

Speaker 5:
The beginning of our marriage was really difficult when it came to sex. I had a really hard time reaching climax. My husband didn't last very long, so a lot of her story really resonated with me and broke my heart because I just don't want her to feel alone like I felt so alone in those first couple of years.

Speaker 5:
What I found really helped was learning my own body. I was raised in a Christian home and I felt really uncomfortable with this. I always wondered, is masturbating okay? Am I sinning by touching myself when my husband isn't present? And I asked myself this all the time and it wasn't until really earlier this year, three and a half, almost four years after being married where I realized that God created sex and God designed sex to be pleasurable and enjoyed.

Speaker 5:
And sometimes with women, we need to learn what feels good to ourselves, so that we can essentially teach our husbands how to please us. Then when I learned what I liked, I was able to direct him. And to be honest, toys were a game changer. I found that I needed a vibrator in order to be able to actually orgasm and be pleased. The vibrator doesn't take the place of my husband, but we've incorporated it into our time together and oftentimes my husband is able to use that on me and I'm able to just direct him and really just teaching him where my quote unquote, "[inaudible 00:29:50] spots" are.

Speaker 5:
But also, learning how to be comfortable talking about sex to my husband has helped. Right then in the moment letting him know what's pleasing you and what's not and just being encouraging to him because sometimes they get the, they almost get discouraged because they think that they're not pleasing you. But being able to say things like, "Oh, that was great. Maybe next time we can try this," or "That was so much better." Then the next time, I have found that to help encourage my husband to where he performs better the next time because he doesn't have the anxiety of am I doing okay?

Speaker 5:
But it took me years to feel comfortable with this. Then I was just tired of having bad sex, so half the time I wasn't even interested and I felt like I was the lower desire simply because I just wasn't enjoying it. But now that I learned how to talk about it and I honestly do enjoy it now.

Corey Allan:
And we're going to leave it at that.

Pam Allan:
It sounds good.

Corey Allan:
I love the statement that she made in there, "That-

Pam Allan:
"I was just tired of having bad sex."

Corey Allan:
... ultimately, I just got tired of having bad sex." And that needs to be a bumper sticker for the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation. What changed my sex life is ultimately I just got tired of having bad sex.

Pam Allan:
I decided to do something about it.

Corey Allan:
So I just stood up and started doing what I needed to for myself to teach those around, my spouse, and here's what, here's how this works, here's what I like because that's the whole story, isn't it?

Pam Allan:
Good job.

Corey Allan:
Well done indeed. How do we make things so that it does become better and you see it as a simultaneous thing? But man, she's touching on the idea that we feed off each other so much. And Emily has touched on that in the conversations of how, man, context matters. That you try something one time and then you try that same something another time and it's a different context because there are a different process, or place, or wherever in their own mental game and it changes everything. So just recognizing this is all about just us trying to be better.

Corey Allan:
This has been Sexy Marriage Radio. Thanks for taking some time out of your day to spend it with us. We left something undone. (214) 702-9565. See you next time.