Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio SMRnation.com. You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Again, to start off the show, we got to talk about my.smr.fm and all of the interaction activity that's going on the last week and a half, two weeks.

Pam Allan: Yeah, lots of good interaction.

Corey Allan: Since we kicked this thing off, there's lots of great conversations. And some people jumping in there from some of the episodes that we've done of what stood out to them, what they wanted to kind of ... question they might have to help steer it and then even some other people jumping in and helping take it at what about this way, and kind of talk you through some different things. It's been really fun to kind of watch it all unfold.

Pam Allan: Yeah. I've loved to see it. I love the layout. For me and the way my mind works, it's easier to maneuver.

Corey Allan: If you haven't found that the community that's taking place at my.smr.fm, just type that into your browser request to join us. We'll let you in, as soon as we see your request and then jump in the conversations because it's a lot of fun to just take things a little further and a little deeper. We also ask you as the SMR Nation to spend some time with us by calling us with your questions and your thoughts, and that's (214) 702-9565, or feedback@sexymarriageradio.com. We've got three emails we're covering today.

Pam Allan: Right. And we'd love to hear what you're struggling with, what you want more info on, tips, ideas.

Corey Allan: Because here at SMR, we go where the SMR Nation wants to go.

Pam Allan: That's right.

Corey Allan: And we want to try to help speak into whatever it is that is struggling for you or questions that you might have or curiosities. We'll go there. We want to talk about it. And we also want to extend a personal invitation for the SMR Getaway coming up in June. There are only six spots left.

Pam Allan: Is that right? Okay.

Corey Allan: So I was telling you crosstalk we mentioned it last week.

Pam Allan: Yeah, filling up.

Corey Allan: We will sell out. We will fill up because we're keeping the numbers lower than normal for the sake of COVID. And we, by June, things should be dramatically different in continuing this upswing. But if you're planning to come or you're thinking about it and you've not yet registered get to smr.fm/getaway and save your spot because we want to see you there in June.
Coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio, like I mentioned just a few minutes ago in our open, several of your emails and our answers, because there are several different conversations that we're going to kind of take that will just be some fun dialogue.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And then even one question that has not ever been asked before-

Pam Allan: Ever, okay.

Corey Allan: ... at SMR. So that'll be exciting to dive into.

Pam Allan: Something new under the sun.

Corey Allan: Something a little different in the world of sex and sexuality. And then on the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer and there are no ads, you can subscribe at smr.fm/smracademy. We're going to continue a conversation that we started two weeks ago, based on the quote of, "I am not who you think I am. I am not who I think I am. I am who I think you think I am."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: But we're going to dive into the world of other validation and self validation and how that quote plays out there and how part of our own growth and desire for maturity, wisdom, and differentiation is all wrapped up in that concept.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So all that's coming up on today's show. So an email from the inbox, "I've been listening to an old podcast for several months now, and I'm a higher desire husband and struggling a lot lately. I've tried to not take it personal. I try not to get my expectations up. I don't know how to turn it into something else because I've been rejected so many times that all I feel anymore is rejection. We can have a great night together, spending time holding hands, back rubs and such, feeling good. And when I make a bid to take it to the next level, to see where it goes from there, 'No, I'm not interested' with a flat emotion, like she's answering a waiter or selling a dessert. If I try to ask what you're feeling or figure out where she's at, I get the 'I'm just not feeling it right now.' And if I pry any further, it turns into a fight. I haven't been able to ignore or change the way I feel. I bottle it up and I pretend everything's okay, but that bottle's been full for weeks and it's spilling all over the place. So how do I not take it so personally? Love you guys. And you guys rock."
This is the plight of a higher desire.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And depending on the differences between levels of those desires, lots of times I hear this when I have clients come through or listeners that have emailed, then you're talking about a pretty big gap between the higher and lower, right. And so this is one of those things that, how do you address the elephant in the room with the hope that it'll change?

Pam Allan: Yeah. Well, I mean, he asked how to not take it personal. I guess, I'm wondering, is there anything wrong with taking that personal? Is there anything wrong with that?

Corey Allan: Well, it hurts.

Pam Allan: It does. And this is a very personal relationship.

Corey Allan: And it's one of the most personal aspects of this personal relationship.

Pam Allan: And when it is a rejection over and over ... This is not a business transaction. You know that you come and say this not, it's not personal, it's business. Right. This is personal. So I think that's okay.

Corey Allan: It is. But he's also building off of things we've said in the past of one of the things that we need to work on is not taking things so personal. So that then we can be personal. That's a phrase I have said several times through the history of SMR.

Pam Allan: Okay. So I'm just not listening to your advice then. So noted. Listeners, quite often, I don't listen to Corey's advice. We'll just throw that out there.

Corey Allan: I am not sure what to do with that.

Pam Allan: I don't either.

Corey Allan: But that's the idea because what you're picking up here though, Pam, is the aspect of how do you not take it personal? Because that's one of those things that's easy to say, incredibly difficult to do.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because it hurts.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: It's frustrating. It's not lining up with what once was or what your expectation is. And so all of those are shots.

Pam Allan: Yeah. You roll. I've got things going in my head, but you roll, because I think I'm taking us off track.

Corey Allan: No, I don't think you are, but the questions I've got is if you look at the dynamic going on between them, because we've only got this one side and the way he's mapping her, of she will even reject this as if she's at a restaurant being offered dessert.

Pam Allan: Right. That's his-

Corey Allan: So she can be a little more flippant and calm or just, "Nope. Not feeling it." Just matter of fact.

Pam Allan: Totally his perception.

Corey Allan: Right. Which that right there is being communicated more than a rejection that would be, "Yeah, babe. I've just, I know this disappointing," where there's kind of an acknowledgement. So, my big question right off the bat is what's being communicated back and forth here? What is he communicating in the manner in which he goes about it and the manner in which he tries to escalate it and in the manner in which he suggests it or initiates it, how is he communicating?
Because sometimes one of the things that higher desires need to learn how to do, is to be cleaner and a little less apologetic. And I don't mean it in the sense of, "Oh, I'm sorry I'm doing this." But I think sometimes there can be a timidity because I know what could be coming. And that's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? I'm coming at it tentative to prepare myself, which is going to increase the likelihood I'm going to get hit with the rejection.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Versus coming at it a little more unapologetic. I want this, I'm moving towards this because the way I think of this, as the higher desire, pain is pain, rejection's rejection. So how do you see your own self respect growing in the manner in which you communicate this? Because he makes the comment of I'm bottling it up and pretending that it's okay when it's not.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because that's what he's saying, because now it's oozing all over the place.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: So this is about both of you recognizing the elephant in the room better and leaning towards it and calling it out better on just saying, "Yes, this is disappointing."

Pam Allan: Yeah. The repercussions of him bottling it up certainly can be just as big or bigger than her saying no.

Corey Allan: Well, sure. But if you put up the big ... If you try to put up the face of, "Oh, it's okay" when it's really not, and you're doing this repeatedly, if she's not reading a situation really well, she's going to take it at face value of "Oh, okay."

Pam Allan: It's okay.

Corey Allan: So the pressure's not going to reach critical mass-

Pam Allan: Gotcha.

Corey Allan: ... to where you really have to start looking at, what's the dynamic going on between us here? What do I want, what do you want, what is the gulf that's going on? Because a lot of times couples dance around this chasm because they don't want to acknowledge that the chasm is actually as big as it is. But the only way we really change some of these dynamics, is we face it. And we say, and I don't mean lose it in the sense of if she rejects you like she is just turning down dessert crumble and get all pouty or angry. But I also, I don't do that, but I do think you do, "Okay. That hurts. I don't get it. Things were going great. And now all of a sudden it stopped and knowing full well, I'm going to likely her off or make her upset and it's going to end up in a fight." Well, it's already a fight. Make it cleaner.

Pam Allan: Yeah, it sounds like it's one that he's just putting a cap on and it's a ticking time bomb for him to keep cramming it into his jar crosstalk

Corey Allan: He's avoiding the real fight. He's avoiding the real conflict of this is the tension and the dynamic between us. How do we bring it out in the open and both talk about this is how this has unfolded. What do we both want?

Pam Allan: From what he referenced, it sounded like his questions about it conversations are at that evening, the evening's gone so well. And then she rejects him and he doesn't want to bring it up because she'll get mad. I'm just curious, is this brought up at other times when it's not in the heat of it?

Corey Allan: That's where you come back with here's a little lay of the land on how I see it.

Pam Allan: Uh-huh (affirmative), or the next morning or the next evening, "Here's what happened last night. Here's how I'm seeing it. Here's how I'm feeling it. Here's what I want from our relationship when it's not in the middle of it."

Corey Allan: Yeah, and this is something that you and I have done just recently. I led this charge on just, things were just okay between us. We're just getting ready for an evening out together. And I'm like, "My read has been, there's been a disconnect between us lately. Are you seeing the same thing?" It's just kind of opening foray into, "Do you see what I see? Let's talk about it."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because if I'm seeing it wrong, then that's good data for me to recognize. If you join me in that, which is what you did, that's good data for us to recognize. Okay, so what could be going on? What's my role? What's your role? Let's navigate this. And then we see what we do after that. I think that's the same kind of concept here.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Bringing it up after the fact is a fantastic step forward.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

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So here's an email that came in, they found us through the Q&A that I've been doing on Instagram with Christian Sucre sometimes.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So this guy's been listening as often as he can and he loves what we're doing. So he has a question that he doesn't think fits the mode of what's going on over in Instagram. So he's emailing, hoping that we'd give him some feedback.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: I love going down on my wife. It's one of the best parts of sex. And I want to try something that I think would be super hot and fun, but I'm a little anxious about it. Hoping you can lay my fear of this. I thought it would be fun to go down her after we both climax during vaginal intercourse. I already enjoyed going down on her after she climaxes, and when she finishes before me. But I'm curious about doing it after I come inside her, my only fear is tasting my own semen. It seems like it would be weird and gross. Side note, my wife does give me oral sex, but never to completion. She tried it once, but she didn't like the taste and she has a sensitive gag reflex. So it wasn't the most fun experience for her. So that's not the problem though. I'm totally satisfied with what my wife does for me. Can you provide any feedback on other men who've tried this, is it not that big a deal? Am I making a mountain out of a mole Hill? Do I need to just need to get over myself and go for it? Or is it just too weird? My wife is good with the idea. So any feedback would be appreciated. And once again, thank you guys for what you're doing.

Pam Allan: So yes. Making a mountain out of a molehill. Just go try it.

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Pam Allan: Just go try it if it weirds you out and it's nasty, then don't do it again.

Corey Allan: This was one of those that whenever we're going to try something new in our relationship, bringing up the idea, especially in sex, is a unilateral move.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Right. One person has to totally just kind of open Pandora's box with the statement, the suggestion or the act in the middle of it.

Pam Allan: And he's already brought it up. He's brought it up with her and she's okay with it.

Corey Allan: They've done the banter back and forth, but it sounds like it just gets into this whole, "Okay. I'm just not sure about what comes out of me." So stick your finger in and taste it and see, I mean, that's kind of like a taste test. In some regards, we do this in all kinds of areas because there's different things that happen in marriage or in sex that various levels of squeamishness are going to come along with it from depending on people.

Pam Allan: Which is why so many people don't talk about it, right?

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Pam Allan: This is why, well, okay, I'll bring it up here. So, good on you for bringing this up. For some people would be scared to death to even bring it up with their spouse.

Corey Allan: Totally.

Pam Allan: And you've already gone there.

Corey Allan: Totally. But this is also not all that uncommon in the sense of having the question or the reticence to do some of these different things, because there's a lot of different times where people have emailed over the years. I don't know if we've talked specifically about it, but husband goes down on wife or wife goes down on on husband and then are you comfortable if you kiss after that because you're going to taste yourself possibly. And there is an element of, I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. And Schnarch has an interesting take on this. So this was way, way back when I was just getting into the trainings with him. He made a comment that I was like, I got to think this through.

Pam Allan: What was it?

Corey Allan: And it was the idea that he was referencing a who after her husband would go down on her kissing was a no-go because she did not want that taste. And he put that as in the level of self-rejection. I don't like me.

Pam Allan: Interesting.

Corey Allan: And there can be components that you've got to start to unpack. It's not that simple, right? It's not just a clear, I hate myself or something. It's just a, I haven't grown into understanding and appreciating all of me.

Pam Allan: Interesting.

Corey Allan: And I think there's an element of that that's, there could be some truth to that. Because it could just be just like what he's asking, this is how you grow to where you start to appreciate all of you. I'm willing to at least check it out and see. Not just take ignorance as fact.

Pam Allan: Right. Right.

Corey Allan: Or no experience as fact. I'm going to ... No. I'm going to test it out.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And lo and behold, it could be great. Lo and behold, yeah, no. Lo and behold, I could grow to love it.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because a lot of the different things we do in sex, we've grown to love because the first time you kiss, you French kiss somebody, you were probably like, "I don't know how I feel about this." First time you went down on somebody, you might've been scared as could be, heading that way.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And maybe you've grown to the point where like, "I can't wait until I get the opportunity to do that again."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because we all grow and evolve. And so yeah. Mountain, mole hill. Yeah.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Don't let fear lead your way.

Corey Allan: Check it out, get the data and then decide. So switching gears just a little bit with this email. So this is from a wife, wondering if we can help process how to handle an increased frustration she has with how much time her husband's on his phone and plays video games.
So most nights he will start playing games between 9:00 and 10:00 and he plays until after midnight or later. And he'll totally check out. She's even tried the towel challenge where you drop a towel in are naked in front of him to get his reaction and hopefully some action, to which he smiled, laughed, and kept playing. Once he sits down he's checked out for hours. He's using the only TV which is in our living room. He swears and talks loudly for the whole house to hear. We have two young children under the age of five. He comes to bed very late and is tired in the morning, sleeping until everyone's awake and going for the day. I've usually been up with the kids for over an hour. Another issue is I feel like he's on his phone a good portion of the time when we're together as a family. It's the first thing he looks at in the morning, spending 30 minutes to an hour in bed, on his phone in the morning and at night.
He watches videos, TV shows, plays games while multitasking household tasks. He's on it during meals and he's watching things while he drives. So we got problems with the way it's being described, okay.

Pam Allan: Yeah, yeah.

Corey Allan: So I don't know how to be more solid in myself. I've told him how much I dislike these habits. I will totally admit that I've whined and nagged about it, but I want to be more solid. I have absolutely confronted him straight on, which seems to help for a few weeks. But then it goes right back to the gaming. I've started putting my phone away when we're together. I put my phone somewhere else during meal times, and I'm not on it when we're in bed. And I miss spending evenings together. I hate hearing him yelling and screaming while he's playing. And I dislike not having access to the TV in the living room. Honestly, had I realized how much of a gamer he was and the impact it's had on me, I don't think I would have said I do. And then she goes on to talk about, she comes from a household where they had strict amount of times that they were allowed.

Pam Allan: Right, right.

Corey Allan: Which is not surprising.

Pam Allan: They got the gap here.

Corey Allan: There's just a different upbringing. Parents were careful on what they saw and what they were exposed to. The oldest, their oldest kid has noticed how much time dad's on his phone. So how do I confront him from a more solid space? Do I ignore this behavior? If so, how can I channel the anger and hurt and disgust that I feel into something less destructive to myself? If we've already done an episode on this, direct me to it, if not, let me know. Thanks, a lonely frustrated wife of an avid gamer.
So this is a struggle. And they're onto, the first thing that jumps out to me is the difference in the family of origins, because she references what was her experience.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And I'm going to be willing to bet that was not his, or even if it was he's now into the world of an adult and he can make his own choices. And so he's free to do as he chooses.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Okay. So some of this to me, first and foremost, just like we talked about kind of through the thread of all the segments today, what are the meanings that we're really talking about? Because is this really the gaming or what's the meaning of it? Right, is it time? Is it attention? Because there's a lot that she's talked about in this email.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Yeah. Keep going. Keep going.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Pam Allan: I'm trying to bite my tongue a little bit.

Corey Allan: Okay. So first off, one of the first things to think about is don't have this conversation while he's gaming.

Pam Allan: Certainly. Right.

Corey Allan: But then the other, and this goes into the idea of meaning, what does it mean to him? What's his point? What's he get out of this?

Pam Allan: I mean, that's a good point. Because all I'm thinking about is what is her meaning behind it? Because I'm listening to him. I'm going, what the heck?

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam Allan: Right, because that's absurd.

Corey Allan: Yeah. It's ... yeah. And then there's definite fallout in impact from his choices. And so for the wife, she needs to be willing to address the impact of his choices. Not get into the realm of make his choices for him.

Pam Allan: And that's exactly right. But you're right. Just looking at what does all of that mean to him is key. What is it you're getting out of it? What is the fulfillment here? What?

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: At least to maybe understand a little bit of what's going on. So then maybe you can navigate, okay, here's my meaning. And maybe this is a thing that can be tackled while out together, right. Find a sitter for the kids or something and take some time to just go off for a walk or something where it's just the two of you and you get a chance to, on neutral ground, talk through some of this and be able to explain here's the meaning of it because she can easily put together, "Well, this is not what I was comfortable with. This is not what I was raised with." And that's where this is all coming from and fueling the emotion attached to it. But how do you examine a little bit more of no, what really matters from the way I'm hearing her write this, is the impact is I don't have a partner. I don't have a co-parent. I don't have a lover.

Pam Allan: No, no. I got some dude living in my house, eating my food, and teaching my kids bad words. I mean, that's what I've got, right now.

Corey Allan: Right. And so this is, when you can come at it from a different standpoint of, this is what the impact is to me, that's what you're addressing. You're in a much more solid place to then make moves accordingly. So she's tried the towel challenge. Good on her of just seeing if you can get his attention, see if you can draw him in, see if you can engage him. But maybe you also need to try the, "You know what, honey, if you want to stay, I'm heading to bed. I would love it if you want to join me. Once the light's out, room's off limits to you."

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And you sleep on the couch tonight, buddy. Or just something to where, and I don't know the whole house dynamic, but it's just, how do you address impact of, I don't have a partner in this?

Pam Allan: Well, and okay, so you're going to be up screaming and cussing. And my kids are hearing this. If you're going to be playing those, you got to go someone's else's house. You got to find a different places to do that because who wants to hear that?

Corey Allan: True.

Pam Allan: And I don't want the kids hearing that.

Corey Allan: Right. Because those are all impact moves and that's the whole point of, it's so easy for us to address some of these things that are real contentious and get out of our lane and start crowding theirs to make them make the choices that you want them to make.

Pam Allan: Well, okay. So the reference that I just made, am I trying to make their choice for them by saying that?

Corey Allan: No, because you're looking out for your children and you're looking out for something that was agreed upon. I'm assuming that having the children was an agreed upon thing that we're in this together.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And so there is this element of, "Look, we had an understanding of the values that we're going to instill upon our children. You're not living up to that understanding at this point."

Pam Allan: Well, they may not have had an understanding on that. It may have just been, "Yeah, we're going to have kids. We don't know what the values are going to be around it."

Corey Allan: Fair.

Pam Allan: I don't know what that is.

Corey Allan: So now you get a chance to have that conversation then.

Pam Allan: What values are we going to try and instill?

Corey Allan: Exactly. So, because this is more than just, it's not just one thing, there's a lot of things attached to this.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because there's a fallout in a lot of ways. And I've come across some couples that have navigated this by being creative on, we have some friends that his game time he gets, he's a early, early riser and he loves playing games, but he plays from like 6:00 in the morning to 7:00 in the morning. By the time wife is getting up at 7:00 in the morning, he's done. And he's on with his day. Has breakfast with her. But he's figured out a way to get that as part of his life because of the meaning of it for him.
And that's what's interesting is because I actually came across, there was a study done in 2012 called Me, My Spouse, and My Avatar. So it's the relationship between marital satisfaction and playing massively multiplayer online role-playing games. So that's what they actually did a study on and found that it's not a significant predictor of marital satisfaction, but it is a significant predictor in marital dissatisfaction on how the perceived gaming is and how it influences based on perception of the two people. Because one person doesn't see it the same as the other.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: They don't understand the escape. They don't understand the thrill, it's just totally foreign to them. And so they actually found it can be beneficial if you find some of these kinds of games you can play together and you have a joint experience then, and you kind of enter into their world. We've done this as parents.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right. Just jump in these games and learn how to play. Mama playing crosstalk Fortnite was a fascinatingly fun time for our children.

Pam Allan: Yeah. It was fun for me, too.

Corey Allan: But it's just understanding this is all about the meanings. And then it's about addressing the impact of the actions because that's your tangible data point.

Pam Allan: Well, it's interesting you talk about that because even the guy that plays in the morning for an hour or whatever, and some of these data points, I can understand someone's meaning all day long, but if they're on there for four to five hours at a time, and the rest of their perceived time with us is typically on some kind of device, that's just speaking volumes.

Corey Allan: Because everything we do communicates.

Pam Allan: Right, right. So even getting in there and playing that and creating a shared experience, there's got to be some sort of limit to how disconnected you can be and still have a relationship that's going to thrive.

Corey Allan: Okay. Well, and even get to the point where you just have a relationship, because sometimes you have to reach the actionable points of, you know what, you have a relationship more with the virtual world than you do with me. And I'm close to the point of you're going to have to choose one or the other.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And sometimes you got to be willing to make those moves and follow through because you can't just flippantly throw the threats out. That's why I love the tangible, "Okay, this is what's happened. This is the impact of it. This is my response."

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So the more I can deal with what is the impact of your choices, the more I can address those cleaner and then make the shifts and see how that changes the tides or not. Once again, we made it through three.

Pam Allan: Three emails. Yeah.

Corey Allan: There's been times when I look back at the history of what we've been doing with questions that we can go deeper or longer at times. And it's like, okay, anytime I'm sitting ahead of time going, I think we can get these three, there's always a little bit of angst of, can we?

Pam Allan: You don't want to shortchange anything.

Corey Allan: Really don't. But some of them, I think the tighter we can make it on in the sense of here's the way we see it, here's a better way to maybe view it and just address your side of it. Because that's the whole thing, is how often do we come at some of these different issues where we've made a mountain out of a mole hill because I'm covering both sides of this dilemma, rather than I just got to face mine and then give the courage to see if my spouse will face theirs like we talked about in the extended today.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because that's when things can get really good. Although sometimes the moves into that are scary or a little squeamish.

Pam Allan: They can be.

Corey Allan: This has been Sexy Marriage Radio. We want to continue the conversation in the nation at my.smr.fm. So if you're not a part of us there, head on over, please join the conversation. You can even go deeper into the academy where we go even further. If we left something undone, we want you to let us know. Wherever you are, whatever you've been doing, thanks for taking a little bit of time of your week to spend it with us. See you next time.