Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio. SMRnation.com.
You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: So we regularly hear from people in the SMR Nation.

Pam Allan: True.

Corey Allan: They help ask the questions of where we're going to go, what we're going to cover. They join us on the Nation's platform at my.SMRnation.com. They call in 214-702-9565. And now recently they're jumping in in droves on Instagram and TikTok with questions and comments because we are regularly having interactions there. Last week's episode, which was spurred by the rapid fire and got a rave reviews and feedback. The feedback that we got just because the amount of information we were able to cover.

Pam Allan: Right, right. I hope that spreads well just because we want a positive message spread out there to just a broad reach of people.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Pam Allan: They need good healthy source to ask these questions.

Corey Allan: And one of the fun things about Sexy Marriage Radio and doing this for so long because I've been a part of every episode.

Pam Allan: Yes, you have.

Corey Allan: You're an addition from the last two and a half years, an addition to my life coming up on 28 years ago.

Pam Allan: Yes.

Corey Allan: Happy anniversary almost.

Pam Allan: Almost.

Corey Allan: I'm getting ahead of the game in that one.

Pam Allan: A month away.

Corey Allan: But this email came in because of the differences in the way you and I are because me being the marriage and family therapist, in case people aren't familiar with Sexy Marriage Radio, and you being my wife but also by profession a tax accountant.

Pam Allan: A CPA. I like those credentials. I'm just saying.

Corey Allan: Thank you. You worked hard for those suckers. I remember all the time of studying.

Pam Allan: I worked hard for my CPA.

Corey Allan: This came in in the inbox at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com not too long ago regarding episode 511, which was the episode where one of the segments we talked about is how can you be confident and the big dog at work but yet not at home?

Pam Allan: Good question.

Corey Allan: Confidence issue at home, right?

Pam Allan: Yes.

Corey Allan: So this is a from a husband that says, "I had to email this before I forget regarding episode 511 and the concept of being the guy that snores, burps, et cetera at home but is the big dog at work." One of the reasons we all love Pam being on the show, there are those priceless times when you say some deep PhD-ish thing, and Pam's response is something like, "I don't know about that." Y'all are awesome. Keep up the great work.

Pam Allan: Well, you're welcome.

Corey Allan: That's what we want to try to do here is talk through life and marriage and sex in an informed way to help frame conversations but also to be real and to be honest and to let our lives come through to a degree because we're all in this together. If we're trying to do better in marriage, we can all learn from each other.

Pam Allan: We are. If you're new to this show, I'm the one that needs it dumbed down. The reason I'm saying, "I don't know about that," it's usually because I don't get it.

Corey Allan: And I can easily get in theory and academic speak. I will totally admit it. So that's where the magic happens when we can really try to hone a message that helps people in real life make whatever they listen to in the show apply to their relationship because that's what we're all about.
So coming up on today's regular free version and incidentally the extended version because this is one of those times where we're going to put it all together and give everybody access to the whole show because we got a guest that's worth listening to. So to lead off what's going to be dropping here in just a second in the show, babe, I'll lead with his question.
So tell me about the last time you had sex.

Pam Allan: I'll fill you in in detail, if you'd like.

Corey Allan: Oh well.

Pam Allan: Maybe not on the show.

Corey Allan: That just got personal because that involves me.

Pam Allan: Yes, it does.

Corey Allan: No, this is Dr. Ian Kerner in a conversation that I had with him. He's been on before in the archives. He joined us regarding his book She Comes First, which is bestseller, widely popular, especially among the marriage and the sex therapy circles. He's got a new book that just came out last week called So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex, and it's basically his journey of creating and investigating sex scripts that couples have in their relationship. And this is a the leading question he has when he works with couples.

Pam Allan: Great title.

Corey Allan: So they jump right in right out the gate and start uncovering what can you discover from the way things happen from who I am, what I hope would happen, what doesn't happen, how long it happens because you got two different worlds colliding in a sexual encounter. He starts to unpack it all.

Pam Allan: And they are scripts. We all get into the script, right?

Corey Allan: Absolutely. But it also can touch on so much deeper than just what we do or don't do because he's really interested in the erotic and the energy and the connections that we can have too. So it's a fabulous conversation that's worth everybody hearing. I have to add an addendum to this though because Dr. Ian Kerner works with all kinds as far as his clientele. His book, which I've read almost all of it, covers all kinds in the case studies. So he's not coming at it from Christian lens. But we here at Sexy Marriage Radio, if it's good data, we're going to let adults be adults in how they unpack it or if they choose to not listen to this episode, totally okay. Or if they don't want to get his book, totally up to them. I recommend it because it's good information, but it is adult content that's not just heterosexual marriages.

Pam Allan: Gotcha.

Corey Allan: So I want to add that and let everybody make informed choices because this episode, while the whole thing is available to everybody, the content is fantastic. And in the future, if you're interested in the extended content, you would subscribe at SMRnation.com/SMRacademy. That's where we get longer conversations and there's no ads. But all that's coming up on today's show.
Well, it's a privilege to welcome back Ian Kerner, Dr. Ian Kerner. Let's be official and then we'll go casual because that's kind of the way a lot of the conversations seem to go, Ian. But Ian is a licensed psychotherapist, nationally recognized sexuality therapist, has a book She Comes First, highly recommend. But you also have a new book coming up. At the state of this recording, by the time this is airing, it'll already be out. But that's where we're going to go.
So Ian, I'm honored to have you back on the air with me again.

Ian Kerner: Well, I'm happy to be here, Corey. I'm happy to talk about stuff.

Corey Allan: All right. So Ian, I'm going to start this off with the title of your book because I think it's a great way to start off a session and a book and a show. So Tell Me About the Last Time That You Had Sex. Where did that line come from?

Ian Kerner: Okay, Corey. So yeah, the book is called So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex, and here's the interesting thing. A lot of people go to therapy. A lot of people go to couples therapy, but when couples go to sex therapy, very often they are talking about stuff that they have lived with inside of themselves for weeks, months, years, even into previous relationships and in their history. It's kind of like going to a dentist with a really bad tooth ache. You just need to get some relief from the pain.
So in the first session, I really want to do that. I want to give people some pain relief. So I get that I don't have a ton of time, and I want them to leave feeling positive and on the path to healing. So I developed sort of what I call a sex in action approach. Literally I want to talk about sex in action. So that's where that question So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex comes in because every sexual event is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's a sequence of interactions that are psychological, that are physical, that are emotional. So that creates what I call the sex script. A sexual event has a sex script to it.
I think that for many couples, their sex scripts are reinforcing the problems they came in with.

Corey Allan: I would agree, yup.

Ian Kerner: They're having a sex problem, and it comes down to something about the way that they're having sex. So my job is to help them rewrite the sex script, and I want them leaving the first session with a homework assignment that already starts to target that first part of the sex script that needs to be rewritten. So that's why I ask them to tell me about the last time they had sex. It's a simple question, but I'm actually looking at that event and that script through multiple lenses.

Corey Allan: It's an actionable question. That's what I love most about it. Then the other thing I love about it is this is something I've landed on lately that is a phrase from Dr. Schnarch that he talked about most of the issues that we face in marriage, for sure in sex, aren't what's missing. We seem to focus on what's missing. It's actually what's present that's the issue. So that's the way to get to this of just let's look at what's going on because that's part of the problem is what's present.

Ian Kerner: That's right. What's amazing is as people are describing a sexual event, you hear everything, who initiated, who didn't, how did they get aroused. But also when there's an issue, sometimes someone will say, "Yeah, I don't like that," or, "I don't like the way they do that," or, "I wish we could do this." And it actually goes back to something in their history. So if I'm looking for history, it'll come into the room. I don't need to have a fishing pole and go looking for it.

Corey Allan: Right. You don't have to dig. Yeah, you don't have to dig because it's there. It'll come out. That's the way you even frame it in the book is the idea of the main floor and the basement.

Ian Kerner: That's right.

Corey Allan: There's a lot of things going on down there.

Ian Kerner: Right. Just to be clear about that, I talk about relationships like a house in terms of most of the time we're living on the main floor of life where we're eating, we're dealing with our kids, we're dealing with our taxes, our jobs, our homework, our in-laws, our bosses. If we get to have sex, wow. We are lucky up on that main floor of life because you're going to wake up tomorrow and the whole thing's going to start all over again.
So the main floor of life is busy. It's where we live. But there's also a basement, and in that basement, there's more of our primary or vulnerable emotions, the things that aren't so safe to experience on the main floor. Right up on the main floor, we might be frustrated or angry. Down in the basement, we're actually sad or feel neglected. And we put stuff down in that basement. And like a basement, sometimes something from 2021 might be in a box right next to something from 1980.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Ian Kerner: It isn't the same chronological order. I definitely talk about knowing when we're in that vulnerable underground space.

Corey Allan: That's good because that helps people. If you're dealing with something that's a repetitive, long-term kind of a thing like you're describing, that's handled differently than frustration. Because if I'm frustrated about something, then I'm supposed to tell my partner what I'm frustrated about, and they fix it, which that's a whole nother thing in and of itself.

Ian Kerner: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: But I'm curious. Let's go back to the idea of the script because we've talked about here on Sexy Marriage Radio over the years. I jokingly will make the comment that most couples that are married... Married couples that have been doing this thing with the same partner for a long time, we really kind of land on two, maybe three scripts. And I mean that as the ax of what we do to get the past done and everybody plays their role. As long as you stay in your lane, everything's good. But one of them gets bored, one of you's frustrated eventually. So I'm hearing that plus more when you're talking about getting a sex script. What do we learn from when we look at how we do this?

Ian Kerner: Sure. So first of all, you're right, couples tend to have one, two, three sex scripts. Sometimes it's just one, especially if it's working. One or two scripts. That's what they use to go on that pleasure trip together. It's when a partner's being left behind or a partner's not enjoying the pleasure the same way, that's when scripts need to be rewritten. Some couples unfortunately from the beginning of their relationships have had sex scripts that aren't really working. So when one or both partners have built up a level of anger, maybe the pleasure isn't equally experienced or maybe their personalities... We have personalities, including in sex. We have sexual personalities. So maybe our personalities aren't always feel so compatible.
So at a certain level when we're talking about creating a script that works, and I don't have any problem with repeating something that works. So if you can get to that level of, "Hey, this is like eating great comfort food. I know it's always going to taste good. I'm always looking forward to it," more power to you. I love the idea of a sex script that works.
But I don't like the idea of a sex script that doesn't work. And very often the reason why sex scripts aren't working... In a way, if you look at a sex script, you could just say, "Oh, it's a sequence of behaviors. He touches my shoulder, and I know that means it's time. I do this and then we do that. Then we're above the waste. Then we're below the waste." You could reduce it to just a sequence of behaviors, and look, there maybe something about those behaviors that need to be expanded or re-sequenced. I do have to say that a lot of couples that I work with, married, monogamous couples sometimes place a little too much emphasis on one behavior over other behaviors.
But there's another thing about what about the erotic life of a sex script? We don't just want sex scripts that are purely sequences of behaviors because then that could start to become boring.

Corey Allan: Yeah. That's where the monotony comes in because then it's just, for the lack of a better simplification, tab A, slot B. That's the point. Sex is so much more than that, and then you're even touching here on the depth of other realms of us in our existence, not only individually but together.

Ian Kerner: That's right. That's right. We want expansion. We want experience. We want different things out of sex at different times. Sometimes we may really want to feel like we're making love. Sometimes we might want to feel like we're having fun. Sometimes we might want to feel like we're using our imaginations in some kind of creative way. You name it. Sex needs to have a number of different experiences. So I do emphasis sex scripts that have different psychological meanings to that. I talk a lot about people not just having the physical behaviors but really having psychological arousal. There are woman who can fantasize their way to orgasm. There are men who can become very visibly aroused without ever touching themselves, just listening, reading, fantasizing, watching. So that's the power of psychological stimulation, to create physical arousal.

Corey Allan: Is your experience then, because I'm curious on this because this is something that I keep running into as well. Is your experience then when we say on the outset we want those to overlap more, the physical and the psychological, but a lot of times it seems like one will shut down the other in people. And maybe this is where the scripts start to come into play because there's deeper things in there that mean I have the psychological really rolling and the erotic, it's kind of there. But something happens, we reach a point, and then I just shut that down, and the physical just takes over. I get the job done and I move on, and I miss what could've been.

Ian Kerner: Yeah. Well, I think we don't really know how to talk to each other about sex. We don't know how to give each other insight into what we want and we desire. But there's an aspect of play to sexuality. There's an aspect of being comfortable in a state of play. You watch kids in a playground, and they got some kind of make believe game going and totally inhabiting the characters. They're in it and present, and they're in that flow state. Some how we stop playing like that. Those muscles don't really get used.
So in the end, I think it's easier to rely on the physical because that's where we can express ourselves. We don't really have the language to express ourselves psychologically. In the beginning of a relationship, especially if we pick somebody we're really in love, were in love with, are in love with, there's so much newness and novelty just fueling the relationship in that phase. We're kind of just relying on the unknown and the unpredictability of each other and getting to know each other. But once we really know everything about somebody, where does that excitement come from?

Corey Allan: Right, especially when once you start knowing about them, you don't like some of what you start knowing about them. I think that starts to make the complexity of married life different.

Ian Kerner: Absolutely, absolutely. Also, in the book, I sometimes talk about feeling like Sherlock Holmes. I feel like because couples often come in knowing what's wrong but they don't know why something is wrong, or the why is complex. It could be, as you just said, something relational. Like I don't particularly like this person. Or during COVID, I'm living on top of this person or this person never takes off their pajamas. There could be something relational. But it could also be psychological. My self-esteem, I'm not feeling great about myself right now. Or something physical like, "I haven't been exercising or eating in a way to support sexual health," or, "I'm taking a medication." So there's lots of things that get in the way of us sort of expressing our sexual selves.

Corey Allan: So then would it be fair to say one thought from your experience and using the label of being Sherlock Holmes in the way you go about it that maybe we all need to start to become more Sherlock Holmes on our own journey?

Ian Kerner: I think so. I think so. We need to be able to take a little more of a magnifying glass to ourselves, to our sex life, to our partner. I guess even in just having this conversation, what does that mean? It means bringing something close to you, bringing something near experience if I'm looking through that magnifying lens, if I'm like Sherlock Holmes. It also means being curious. Not being judgmental but you're looking and you're curious. You don't know what you're going to find, but you're interested. You might have an idea but you really don't know.
So I think being able to go near experience and be curious are very important.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And I'm sitting here thinking, Ian, of how courageous that is for some people just because this is stuff they don't ever really want to explore. But the fact that they maybe will is courageous because we've been raised, at least if you've been raised under the Christian umbrella or some of the more dogmenting kind of religions, then you're raised with a little bit of this... There's just a weight of what sex and sexuality is. There's just this shame or whatever it is, whether it's labeled cleanly or not, there's just this darkness or unknown that I think I can make it to where I don't know if I want to go explore that, even though it's an absolutely great aspect of our life to explore.

Ian Kerner: Right. I think you said something interesting, which is just that we bring a heaviness to sex very often. It could be the heaviness of how we conceptualize sex. It could be the heaviness of the baggage we're bringing or the shame. But we need to unburden ourselves sometimes of that heaviness. Look, a little heaviness is good. Taking things seriously, taking-

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Ian Kerner: Taking our vows seriously, taking what's happening in our marriage bed seriously. I like that kind of heaviness. But there also needs to be some lightness. There needs to be some fun, some crosstalk, some adventure, just some lightness.

Corey Allan: So what do you do then as far as for the listeners of SMR today, what do you say to the ones that are caught in this dilemma of, "I want to bring the lightness to this. I want to bring the fun and the adventure and the curiosity to it, but I'm married to someone that just won't. They don't even want to." So how do you pivot... Obviously they're not sitting in front of you, so it's kind of harder to actually unpack it. But how do you pivot that based on what you keep coming across?

Ian Kerner: Yeah. So in that first session, in addition to learning about a problem, in addition to hearing about the last time somebody had sex, the last time the couple had sex, I'll also ask them a question, which is so if we're going to work together for a couple of months here or a few months and we're going to get on the other side of this. We're going to meet every couple of weeks with some homework in between, and we're going to solve this problem. What does that look like? What does solving the problem? What does better look like?

Corey Allan: I gotcha.

Ian Kerner: So first thing that happens is they're taking something that was framed as a problem and they're now seeing it from a solution's oriented perspective. But then me being a good sex therapist, I'll push it a little bit. I'll try and raise the temperature in the room a little bit and turn that solution into a little bit of a fantasy because that's the power of sexual language. That solution is wanting to be kissed in a certain way, wanting to play in a certain way, wanting to do something in a certain way. So I'm starting to hear their fantasies.
So really couples in the room who have come in sometimes very negative and very fatalistic or hopeless are really sharing a fantasy of what they want from the other person, and that's enticing. That's arousing. That can be hot. crosstalk enjoy some of that heat.

Corey Allan: Well, I hope so because that's also something that could... Even something like that can be from the other person's perspective, like, "I had no idea." Because it could be, like you talked about at the very beginning of today, what's going on buried in the script and what we do is likely the problem because I'm actually creating the dynamic or the system that's keeping whatever it is I'm hoping for possibly at bay because I haven't really looked at it on... Wait, but when I keep doing that, that creates the likelihood I'm not going to get what I say I think I really want.

Ian Kerner: Yeah. No, I think that that is the essence of the book is having that willingness in a way. Corey, what I always say is when I give couples homework, I always say I know when Friday night comes around and you decided to do this homework, you might not want to do it. You might not have desire.

Corey Allan: Right.

Ian Kerner: But if you have willingness, if you even have an incremental level of willingness, then you can show up because it's important and because you're willing to do it. So you don't have to have desire, but you do have to have willingness. So if that couple sitting in front of me and one couple really has a lot of willingness and one partner doesn't, as long as that other partner has some portion of willingness, I can work with that. We can frame a step around that.

Corey Allan: That's still movement.

Ian Kerner: Yeah, it's when someone has no willingness.

Corey Allan: Yeah, but even that's a move that's making it present. Now you got to figure out within the relationship, "Okay. This is what's actually present. This is what's going on. So now we go to face it for what it really is, not keep just hoping."

Ian Kerner: That's right. That's right.

Corey Allan: Okay. So I'm also curious because one of the things I love about the way you have framed this is when you talk about working with people, you give them homework and even throughout the book, there's plenty of homework. It's almost like working with you without working with you if you really wanted to get serious and go through the process with you in this. But you even get into some of Emily Nagoski's spontaneous and responsive work, accelerators and brakes. That's who at least I attribute a lot of that, and she's been on the show.

Ian Kerner: Emily is great. Emily has written probably the best book that sums up a lot of science, and she takes that science to really interesting places. But we all, from myself to Emily to anybody stand on the shoulders of a lot of great researchers and theorists and therapists.

Corey Allan: Oh, absolutely. I'm all for giving credit where it all needs to go. But you did a good way of framing that idea of spontaneous and responsive. So can you kind of walk through that? Because I think that helps. I've framed things in higher desire or lower desire because that's in a relational context, but this even gets further into the person.

Ian Kerner: Right. Right. So I really look at in a sex script, things have to get going for there even to be a sex script. So initiation and desire are the first phase of the sex script. So what do we have to do to get both of these people moving? So I talk more about creating a shared desire framework for couples to occupy. I talk about the challenges of that, and this is where the dual control model, the idea of accelerators and brakes, and certainly the idea of spontaneous and responsive desire comes into play because very likely there could be a partner in the relationship who can very quickly metabolize a sexual cue. What do I mean by that?
My sexy partner just came out of the shower in a towel and looks really cute right now. That's crosstalk-

Corey Allan: I'm really digging wet hair. That's a good thing. Yup.

Ian Kerner: That's a cue. I might have the kind of metabolism that makes me hungry. I want that. I want more of that. I feel it physically. That's really spontaneous desire when we can metabolize a sexual cue very quickly, something visual, something we smell. A lot of women tell me the scent of their partner can really be the cue that they most metabolize. The problem is that that partner who can metabolize single sexual cue very quickly might be with partner who does not. That partner might need a whole cascade of sexual cues. That partner's desire might be less resistant to environmental stressors. That guy or that woman who's looking at their partner coming out of the shower, there maybe a whole lot of stress happening at home. But they see that person coming out of the shower, and they can cut through all that stress and find desire. Well, not everyone can do that.
So that's where we get into the difference between spontaneous and responsive. I sometimes liken it to going to an amusement park. One partner has a fast pass. They can get right on the ride and go.

Corey Allan: That works.

Ian Kerner: They skip the line. They get on that coaster, and they're off and having some fun. But you're with somebody who just doesn't happen to have the fast pass. What are you going to do? Go on by yourself or are you going to go wait on line with that partner who may not even want to wait on line. They may not even want to wait on line. They maybe going on the line because they know that you want to go on the ride.

Corey Allan: You're the one that wants to ride the ride. Yup.

Ian Kerner: Right. So now we got to make waiting on the line a very pleasurable, nice way of getting us onto the ride. So that's how I compare it.
So the challenge, Corey, is that most couples do not share the same desire framework. If I'm a spontaneous person and my wife is also spontaneous, then we both have a fast pass, and we're going to get right on. We might not have the best sex ever, but we probably don't have a problem getting going, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Ian Kerner: If I'm in a responsive desire framework and I'm very prone to vulnerable to stressors and my partner also is in a responsive desire framework, well we might not have sex much at all. We might lose that sexual connection that maybe was once there, and that's not good either. Most of the time though one partner is in that spontaneous fast pass framework and the other partner's in the responsive wait on line framework. They see the world differently. They see the world differently. That's the big thing is that they see the world differently.

Corey Allan: And yet we constantly seem to get caught in this, "But you should have a fast pass just like me. I don't understand. What's the problem? There's something wrong with you."

Ian Kerner: That's right. The fast pass is the way the media depicts sex. Two people see each other across the room, next thing you know they're grabbing at each other's clothes. So the person who has to wait on line who has responsive desire may start to feel a little broken. The person who has the fast pass might be saying, "What's wrong? You used to be interested in that ride. What's happening?" Now maybe it's a problem with the sex script. If the ride isn't fun, you don't want to go on it.

Corey Allan: I was just thinking that because that's where sometimes you got to think about the fact that the person with the fast pass is always jumping the line to get on the ride that's really not a lot of fun.

Ian Kerner: That's right.

Corey Allan: That's a better question to ask then of is what you're after really worth wanting too?

Ian Kerner: I think that's the biggest thing is you want sex scripts that lead to events, sexual events that motivate you to want to have more. And then that brings in what I sort of call the erotic thread, which is letting your sexual selves reveal themselves without having to have sex. Why can't we just have a little bit of sexual energy in our lives, a little bit of eroticism? So when we have working sex scripts, when we respect each other's desire frameworks where we get on the ride at the same pace, and we stay on that ride together and move through pleasure and we stay connected afterwards. Study after study shows that couples who have good healthy sex have higher levels of relationship positivity overall crosstalk do not. So then we maintain that connection throughout our lives.

Corey Allan: Well, man, I love the framework that you're talking about in this book and then in our conversation because I think that's the biggest thing I want to do here with Sexy Marriage Radio is constantly help couples frame conversations and aspects of their relationship better because it seems like when we can have a cleaner view of what's going on, I have the chance to be more empowered to address whatever it is that's going on.
So man, Ian, this is great. How can people find more about you and the book and just everything you got going on?

Ian Kerner: Thank you, Corey. I think the best way is just through my website IanKerner.com. There's a link to buy the book. It links to number of different book stores. There's a lot of information on my website. I'll be doing different presentations and whatnot, so Zoom-based stuff. So people can find me there and on podcasts like yours.

Corey Allan: Perfect. Well, Ian, all the best on this work. I know that She Comes First was a tremendous help to a lot of people. I constantly hear about it from the SMR Nation. That will every so often just be talked about that, "Hey, that's a book you got to check out if you haven't already." So I hope this one's just as beneficial across the board for you and for everyone else.

Ian Kerner: Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate all the good work you do.

Corey Allan: Thank you, sir.
So there are some people in the field of sex therapy and marriage therapy and how those overlap specifically to that really bring it, that are really good at what they do. Ian's in there for sure just because you talk about a guy that's willing to go just jump right in with both feet. Because on the professional side of things, there's a lot of people, they want to do marriage work in my field. But they don't ever talk about the sex side of it, which there's an element of that that I can understand. But there's also, man, you're missing so much data and so much possibility.

Pam Allan: Right. Because they all feed off of each other.

Corey Allan: Well, we have the saying here of how you do life is how do you sex, and how you'll do sex is how you'll do life.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Those two are interchangeable. So if I can unpack and explore one, I'll learn about the other.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: This has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If this spurred some conversations or some thoughts for you, let us know feedback@sexymarriageradio.com, 214-702-9565. Whatever you've been doing as you've listened to this show, thank you for hanging out with us. See you next time.