Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, smr.fm. You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allen.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio where last week we launched a new course.

Pam Allan: Yeah. That's been exciting.

Corey Allan: And that's been very cool to have people joined in, already watching some of the sessions, speaking up. There can be dialogues that happen. If you're members of the course then there's dialogues that can happen there on the platform. But just by way of announcement, we've got two more in the pipeline. And just to plant some seeds, we don't have dates to save yet, but we are going to record these live. And they'll just be quick two day conferences. If you want to show up, if you want to fly in to Dallas and have a little quick two day deep dive ...

Pam Allan: Or if you live here.

Corey Allan: Or if you live local, for sure, please come join us. And we'll give you the dates as soon as we have them set up, but we're going to record two more courses live and we would love the SMR Nation members to be in the audience. And it'll be free. All you got to do is just get here.

Pam Allan: Bonus.

Corey Allan: So we'll let you know as soon as that is set up. But the one thing that is set up is Sexy Marriage Radio Getaway 2022.

Pam Allan: Indianapolis.

Corey Allan: Indianapolis. It's already set up. There's already people joining us, signing up and so go to smr.fm/getaway to join us this June, because it's going to be a fantastic time in downtown Indy. SMR Nation on the road.

Pam Allan: Hmm. I'm already looking forward to the food.

Corey Allan: You would be looking forward to the food already.

Pam Allan: Yes. inaudible a cocktail.

Corey Allan: I am married to a foodie. Well welcome to Sexy Marriage Radio. What we want to have happen going on here is we want the nation to help us out. And the way you do is you let us know what's going on in your world. You can ask your questions, email us, call us (214) 702-9565. Make a recording of your message, your question, and email it to us. Or just email us at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com. Because this is listener driven radio. And what we want to do is speak to what's going on in your world and the things that will help you. Because all of us have roadblocks. All of us have things that will happen in our life and in our marriage that will get in the way. And sometimes just a better perspective on how or a different perspective on how to view it and how to frame the conversation is all the jump start we need.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And that's what we try to do here at SMR. And we want to help you. And we've got a couple new things we're trying out this week on today's episode, and we'll want your feedback even more if this ends up happening well.

Pam Allan: Let us know how you think it worked.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. The last thing we ask, is we ask a favor from you. If you like what's going on here, we ask you to rate and review the show on iTunes or Spotify or any way you listen, if there's an option to rate and review or leave a comment please do, because we want to spread the word that married sex is the hot bed for sex. And SMR is a great resource to help make your bedroom as hot as can be, because winter's coming and it's going to be cold outside, so let's heat it up.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Well, coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is we've got to wrap up something from a prior episode on the BDSM content that we did.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: With some feedback that came in from a married couple, which I love it. Both husband and wife emailed us.

Pam Allan: That's good.

Corey Allan: And we love the dialogue and the pushback when we miss something or are off base on something. That's what makes all of us better.

Pam Allan: Sure.

Corey Allan: And so sure we're going to address that a little bit, plus a couple of other emails that have come in or voicemails that have come in and then on the extended content today, which is deeper, longer, and there are no ads, you can subscribe at smr.fm/smracademy. Last week's episode with Dr. Lori Watson in the extended content, we talked about the yin and the yang and a polarity of energies that are out there and she walked through a way you could approach it with via her training and her framework, with the psychological theory she follows, I want to present an alternative.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And we want to talk through a gridlock issue. And this is where we're going to ask members of the extended content, if you've got gridlock issues, let us know what they are and we'll help you unpack them too. All that's coming up on today's show.
So Pam in Episode 541, that was the ... Eight Tips for Great Sex was the title of that episode, if I believe.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: We did a segment in there where someone had emailed in about what is our thought on BDSM because there's not many Christian-based resources that will address the subject. And so we attempted to and here's just a couple of clips from that episode.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So it is one of those areas where you're talking about the underside of relationships. A lot of us as people, we all have a nasty side, we all have touches of this, which I'm going to pivot to in just a minute. But there is an element of playing in that polarity, of power submission, erotic. There's some polarity that comes into this where you both kind of play a role if you will, that is not typically what a lot of people like to dabble in and so is there because it comes down to your own personal relationship and your own marriage relationship. Because when two consenting adults are involved and are interested in venturing into some of these edges, okay, venture. But again, this is anytime you're doing something that's a little more in the taboo world or in the risque world, because there can be some harm that comes from this. Because while there can be an element of, I get a lot of pleasure out of the physical pain, there's some psychological pain that can be in there that maybe festers and brings up some other things that needs to be addressed.
Or there's some emotional pain. And so there needs to be tremendous amounts of communication. That's why the whole world of BDSM typically has safe words. If you haven't established that ahead of time ...

Pam Allan: You're in trouble.

Corey Allan: Then you're setting up scenarios where it does get into disrespectful, degrading, demeaning, which for one partner could heighten it because that's what, they're the ones that really seeking it. But for the other, it causes real severe damage.
So two emails came in shortly after that aired, from a husband and a wife. And so I'm going to paraphrase the wife's and then the husband's.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Right at the end, these are married together. This is a partner.

Pam Allan: They're married to each other.

Corey Allan: This is a spousal unit. Okay.
"So my husband and I dabble in the lighter side of BDSM, so when the topic was mentioned on Episode 541, I was curious to see where you're going to go. You touched on it back in this topic on, back on Episode 519 with the dominant versus submissive, which was the wife who appeared to want be a full time submissive and her husband was not necessarily on board. I wasn't sure I agreed with everything that you said in that episode, but I wasn't offended. Rather, it was clear that you were not speaking from personal experience and you were trying to combine what you may have been taught clinically with what you've been told by clients. When the question of what does the Bible say about BDSM, I expected you to say it doesn't expressly address the issue, which you did. I expected you to remind everyone to be safe. I expected you to tell them to start slow, to do research and discuss everything in detail completely with your partner. And then discuss that again with your partner.
I expected you to mention that trust and constant, frequent, honest communication are essential to safely exploring BDSM play. Without those things, you can be hurt. This is not at all where things went. I found the implication that two consenting adults engaging in any type of BDSM play was from a nasty side of someone's personality, to be extremely judgemental. You went all 50 Shades of Gray on the topic and focused on sadomasochism. You have often stated that you're not the morality police, that everyone should use his or her moral compass to create the best sexual experience within their marriage. This time I felt you were the morality police. I felt judged by someone who has previously mentioned that they had no personal experience with BDSM. I still love 99.9% of what you produced, but not this segment."
The husband also responded that said, and this is a paraphrase of his email as well,
"After listening, my reaction can only be described as disappointment. You had the opportunity to educate your audience on a topic that's widely discussed, but rarely understood. Instead of focusing on the central tenant of communication in BDSM, you talk about how, if not done right, it can bring harm. Instead of discussing how to begin slowly and ensure both partners are fully on board and understand the rules and roles of the activity, you talked about trauma. BDSM is a wide spectrum of activities. It's clear that you have a clinical understanding of the subject, but not a practical one. If you choose to discuss`a subject like this, I challenge you to bring on someone with experience in the culture who can educate a listener, and who is experienced in exploring, but wants to do it all safely.
This is not someone who will talk about how a desire for BDSM is in response to some trauma however. This may apply for some, but for many that simply doesn't resonate. Again, BDSM activities is simply a spectrum going from sensory play to very light restraints, to very intense scenarios, requiring tremendous training. What you described was narrowly focused and judgemental. I still love the show, but you missed the mark on this one."
Message received.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. Because I went back and listened to the whole segment and the two clips we played, those weren't together.

Pam Allan: No.

Corey Allan: And so I hear exactly what they're saying and that ...

Pam Allan: When you call something the underside of a relationship ...

Corey Allan: That was in there too.

Pam Allan: The word nasty to me isn't a thing but it struck them that way. But to me, that using the phrase "Underside of a relationship" gives an impression that that might be where you're going.

Corey Allan: Like a dark, like it's bad. It shouldn't be brought out into the open.

Pam Allan: And for me knowing you, in my mind that was more saying, this is something more hidden, something that doesn't really come out. Like the underside is something that we don't usually bring to light. It is definitely harder to go and talk about. Not as many people are talking about it. What you found when you actually went out to try and find people ...

Corey Allan: And still am trying to find somebody that can talk to this and speak to this with some morality and value based things, as far as the biblical Christian worldview.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And they're very difficult to find because there's people, there's lots of shows that talk about this, but they don't have the value undergirding we do as a show. And so that's a real difficult needle to thread if you will.

Pam Allan: Well it is what I love in this, the emails that they gave, they kind of laid a groundwork for it. I mean, that's a teaching right there in the groundwork that both of them gave on what to address.

Corey Allan: It's very well done.

Pam Allan: So we appreciate that.

Corey Allan: It's very well done and so my apologies for the word choice, because that matters. Words matter. Where we go with every episode we do, where we will be going in the extended content today, words matter.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: The meanings of our words matter. And so it was a poor choice. I was meaning it in the sense of we all have a component of us that is dark. And I don't make that as a judgmental. I make that as it's a hidden thing that I don't want anybody else to know about.

Pam Allan: Or that no one will talk about.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: I mean the two of you may talk about it together as a couple, but ...

Corey Allan: That increases the intimacy in that marriage. Absolutely. When you're willing to talk about this, express the interest, or want to dabble and venture into it, fantastic. And follow that guideline that they just laid out of, take it slow, have great communication, test out some of the lighter things, the sensory world, the light restraints, that kind of stuff, before you get into the deeper. Because the deeper is fraught with a lot of pitfalls that could be, if you don't have some experience and some training on how do you do this?

Pam Allan: I guess the question is how do you get training? And if you can't find ...

Corey Allan: I'm still searching,

Pam Allan: Pull some stuff crosstalk.

Corey Allan: I'm going to keep looking and I'm going to keep asking around and eventually something will be found. And if not, Hey SMR Nation if you know somebody I need to be talking to, feedback@sexymarriageradio.com, please email.

Pam Allan: Well, where did this couple get training from? He referenced training. Where did he find that.

Corey Allan: Some of it was, one is there's a podcast out there called The Pleasure Mechanics or put out by the Pleasure Mechanics. And they have a lot on this. And I listened to several but it's not following the framework we follow as a show.

Pam Allan: Gotcha.

Corey Allan: And so, everybody's adults here, but I'm not going to say, hey, go here for sure to find ... Because that opens up the can of, I'm not condoning all of the value they they base their message on.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: It's just they are more versed in it.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Whereas I, and we are not.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: So I'm coming at it from a clinical side, more so than a personal experience side.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: We want to thank our sponsor for today's episode, Manscaped.

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Corey Allan: And it's an exceptional tool by the way, just highly recommend.

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Corey Allan: Merry Christmas.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Dr. Allen and Pam. Just wanted to start off by saying, I love the show. Thanks for your decade. Your advice through the years have helped me tremendously. My question today is twofold. Is there any scientific evidence that points to why we are attracted to specific parts of the body? I love my wife's bottom, but I don't know why. If it was up to my wife, she wishes I loved her feet the way I love her bum. I do massage her feet regularly, but it does nothing for me, I'd really enjoy rimming my wife, but she kind of thinks it's gross and says the thought of it is uncomfortable. I've kissed the pit of her peach before and it sent me over the top, but she didn't like it. The second part of my question is, my wife wants to go skydiving, which makes me uncomfortable. Would making a deal be wise? Asking her to agree to let me rim her in exchange for letting her try skydiving? Thanks for your thoughts.

Corey Allan: I love the boldness of the question.

Pam Allan: It's a bold question. Okay. You got to set the level playing field here. What is rimming?

Corey Allan: Riming is using your tongue around the rim of their anus.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So it's licking their anus.

Pam Allan: I just know there's a lot of people listening that aren't going to know what that is. So I want to make sure we all understand what that is.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And it's under the umbrella of anal play obviously, and this can be exterior, interior. There's a variety of things that happen and you're capable of.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: So I hear two questions in this. What is it that makes us attracted to certain things versus others?

Pam Allan: Certain parts? Yes.

Corey Allan: Right, because his wife would love him to be a feet guy.

Pam Allan: So she can get the massages crosstalk.

Corey Allan: And it would turn him on. Absolutely. I mean, I can understand that. There's elements of, oh, I wish you were X because that's what I really like.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Having massaged or focused on.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: That's going to be the history of a lot of people. So I did some research and is there any scientific basis and reasoning why we like certain parts and not others? Why we are attracted to certain parts and not others? There's nothing definitive I found in this. The only thing I was finding was from anthropologists.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: That if you're just looking at the history and the evolution of us as a species, there is an element of sex used to be largely only for practical purposes and it was rear entry. And so there's a speculation from some anthropologists that some people are more butt people because it's rear entry, it's coming from behind. That's what you see in symmetry, is what's most often thought of as attractive.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Which is rounded curve and there's a symmetry to it. And so a lot of times a nice round rump meant fertility. And if you're thinking about us propagating the species, you're going to be more attracted to people that are fertile and could be possibly helping aid in that process.

Pam Allan: Right. Right.

Corey Allan: But then it shifted to where when we started having sex facing each other, that changes the dynamic. That changes what we could be attracted to because now all of a sudden we're facing each other. And so now you could have the possibility of breast men and so there's speculation as to what leads to what, but there's no definitive here's why you are this, here's why you are that.

Pam Allan: Well, I guess that just opened a new question for me. Oh, why was it rear entry before not front facing? It's not like we were different before.

Corey Allan: So a lot of it's cultural because if you were thinking about, look at where we are today in the 21st century and how comfortable of lives largely the entire world lives.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Go way back in history when civilizations were usually at war, at risk of being at war, you had to fight and work hard just to find sustainable food sources, water sources. So sex was not about the romanticized view we have of sex now. It wasn't about, hey, let's just go have a fun evening together tonight. Most of the time it was about, I got a little bit of time. Let's get this taken care of and we move on because it's a power play, but it's also a way to continue to promote the species.

Pam Allan: Just never thought of it that way. Okay.

Corey Allan: So if you go way back to the caveman days in a sense, of when most everybody lived rural environments, you're prey in some regards, depending on what kind of predatorial animals are around you. And so it's not like, hey, we got a whole lot of time to have a good moment together, baby. Sometimes it's just, we got to get it done. And that's just the way it went.

Pam Allan: Well, I didn't have a mattress either so I'm not ... and one of these, not one to lay on a flat ...

Corey Allan: And have the other person supporting them. There you go. Is it softer that way when you're on top? That's a different definition then. So then the second question he had of, he likes riming his wife or wants to. She is not comfortable with it. So now you add in the variable of, if she wants to go skydiving, he's not comfortable with it.

Pam Allan: I've got a serious ...

Corey Allan: What about an exchange?

Pam Allan: Okay. How is this any different than if you'll do the dishes I'll have sex with you? Yeah. I mean, it's an exchange-based model. That's not how this works.

Corey Allan: No, it's not. And especially, especially when you're talking about, it's not tit for tat.

Pam Allan: No, not at all.

Corey Allan: It's not even equal. It's apples and oranges.

Pam Allan: It's an adventure she wants to go on herself. She's not asking him to do it.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: She wants to do it. Has nothing to do with him other than, okay, there's a safety issue and I might be concerned about you as a spouse. Yes. That has something to do with him. But she's not asking him to jump out, but she doesn't ...

Corey Allan: He's not involved in that. Whereas she is involved in what he is asking for.

Pam Allan: She has to be involved. It's her body that's being licked.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Quite literally.

Corey Allan: Right. And so that changes the dynamic dramatically. And so I do believe we've touched on this before in the past, maybe not in depth, but can you have an element of your sex life that is out in the open in the sense that, hey, I'll make it worth your while. And that's kind of a pseudo exchange-based thing. Come do this, or let's try this and I'll do that.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And I think if that can be a both on board and it's a playful, it's out in the open and it's not trying to push an envelope, why not explore that space a little bit if your relationship is at that state?

Pam Allan: Yeah. If you both have fun with that, that's totally great.

Corey Allan: But normally what trips us up most as couples is we make things exchange-based.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: We say one thing, I'll do this, you do that. You owe me this because I did that. And when that's an undercurrent of ... See, I'm finding myself having to be very careful with my wording now.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Right.

Corey Allan: But when that's something that's under the surface of a relationship and it's unspoken expectations or it's unspoken things, it becomes covert contracts as Dr. Glover would refer to it, that wrecks things in the long run, if not even the short run. Because then all of a sudden, sometimes we give into things just because we just want the pressure to go away, knowing full well we may not pay when it comes due. Which okay, that's fine if it's something that's like, yeah, I was just trying to get you off my back.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And so this is integrity issues of, okay so you want to seek that aspect of a sexual dynamic with your wife. Okay. Absolutely nothing wrong trying to seek it, but she's got to be a willing participant in it.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And so trying to do it as an exchange-based thing, probably going to be a disaster in the short run. Maybe there's some other ways you could bring it up of, hey, you know there's something I'm really interested in. Is there a scenario in which that might work? You might be interested in trying out? Let just see. Maybe you would grow to enjoy it. Because again, this is one of those things. Our partners desires are their desires. They can also be a mechanism to help me grow out of my comfort and into an area maybe I do enjoy. But you at least also can get confirmation of, I don't, if you're willing to test it out. And then it's easier to hold your ground on the things that, nope, not interested. That nothing for me. That's the mechanism of marriage and growth at its finest.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Yeah. It is. But trying to equate the two totally irrelevant things to exchange, not advised.

Corey Allan: Well said. Once again, I love the willingness of The Nation to push back, keep us in check, question, speak up and just help us be better.

Pam Allan: Yeah. I absolutely appreciate and love how iron sharpens iron here.

Corey Allan: It absolutely does because this is one of those things that when we take stances on stuff, regardless of what it may be, I mean, as hosts of a show, obviously we have a different platform, but we want to be better too. We want to ask the questions of, hey, what did we miss? That's why almost every episode I say, hey, if we left something undone, let us know. That's a serious question and plea.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: So let us know what did we miss in this? Because we want to keep the dialogue going because that's what helps every one of us be better, including ourselves. Well this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. We're so glad you took some time out of your day to spend it with us. And we hope to see you again next time. And in Indy in June, 2022,