Dr. Corey Allan:
Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, alongside my wife Pam joining each and every week.

Pam Allan:
Hey, good to be here. Good to be here.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Where we're trying to have straightforward, honest conversations about married life and love and sex and-

Pam Allan:
All things in between.

Dr. Corey Allan:
I guess that fits it, yeah.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And what we want to know is from the SMR nation, we want to know what's on your mind. What questions you may have because as we are continued to likely have to be around each other a whole lot more.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
There might be some questions that are coming up like, "Wow, I hadn't thought about it this way because I haven't... it hasn't been as much of an issue." I did actually read The Rock In Hollywood.

Pam Allan:
Yes.

Dr. Corey Allan:
The quarantine time is actually helping his marriage. They interviewed him and he was talking about how it's really helped him deal with some stuff and make things even better.

Pam Allan:
Yeah. I think there's probably a lot of people like that. The assumption is that it'd be negative because you're-

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Pam Allan:
Maybe annoying each other and that can definitely play into this-

Dr. Corey Allan:
But this is the time you get to take advantage of and make it even better. And if you're interested in how to make it even better with a community, we can't it recommend enough, the Sexy Marriage Radio Academy. So if you go to smr.fm/smracademies where you can join us to get the extended content. Plus if you go all the way with us, you get to join the chat and the monthly coaching calls, the virtual hangouts, a lot of the different things we do where there's just a vibrant group of people trying to help each other. And to everyone else in the SMR nation, if you've got a question we want to know what's on your mind and how we can answer it for you, 214 702 9565 is our voicemail line or feedback@sexymarriageradio.com where every email that comes in helps a [inaudible 00:02:13] where we may go in the future. Because this is listener driven radio and the other thing that our listeners do as members of the SMR nation is they help us spread the word Pam.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And that is by jumping on iTunes, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, Google Play, whatever it is you choose to listen, rate and review, leave a comment, help everyone else know, Sexy Marriage Radio's got it going on. So coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is a conversation I got to have with Gary Thomas.

Pam Allan:
Such a great author. So thrilled about this.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Author. Sacred Marriage is the one that's really well known. He was on a couple months back with When To Walk Away, where he looks at how Jesus dealt with toxic situations, which is a great book and a great interview. But this time we're talking about the whole concept of cherish because that's particularly poignant in marriage and in relationships.

Pam Allan:
Wanting to be cherished or cherishing the other.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Both.

Pam Allan:
Okay.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Of just what's the whole idea of the concept of cherish? Because it's the one relationship, and this is what his work is really based on, where we're called to cherish our spouse. We're not... All the other relationships, cherish doesn't fit into that necessarily. But in this regard, in marriage, cherishing is a vital component of it. And so we get into the theory and the hows of what does this look like? And then coming up on the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is longer, deeper, and there's no ads, you can subscribe at smr.fm. I get a chance because he's got a history with the church. He's a writer in residence at a church.

Pam Allan:
Church down in Houston right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And so I get a chance to ask him his thought about the church, his history in dealing with the concepts of marriage and sex. Because our experience is though... it hasn't been real vocal hence, Sexy Marriage Radio.

Pam Allan:
Right, exactly.

Dr. Corey Allan:
One of the components we want to do is walk alongside believers to help them enhance and ask the questions that are going on. That they'll get good answers that aren't just anything goes.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And so it's a great conversation because he gets into the history of it back where culture plays a huge component. And it's a fascinating conversation. At least it was for me. That's the kind of stuff... that took me back into my undergrad days.

Pam Allan:
Yeah. Yeah. Looking forward to everybody here, getting to hear it. But yeah, you're talking about undergrad days. Well, your dissertation.

Dr. Corey Allan:
With a Bible major.

Pam Allan:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
So there was a lot of the history that I had to learn in the Greek and the... all of the stuff that I did in grad school and undergrad back in the days of ACU.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And so just having to pull on that again of like, "Oh, that's right, I forgot about it." And so-

Pam Allan:
Even your dissertation for your doctorate tied in to this topic as well so.

Dr. Corey Allan:
True, that was religiosity.

Pam Allan:
Love it.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And sexual satisfaction, you are correct. So that was a great conversation. So-

Pam Allan:
But not too geeky in the education side, right?

Dr. Corey Allan:
No, it's just the appropriate amounts of geekiness in there, so.

Pam Allan:
Okay.

Dr. Corey Allan:
All that's coming up on today's show. Well, I'm excited to welcome back to the show, Gary Thomas, who is... I don't know Gary, one of the easiest way to talk about it. You're a prolific author that you've written a bunch of works.

Gary Thomas:
Well, look, I love the process of writing so it doesn't feel like work. So yeah, I just... I keep writing and I'm grateful that the publishers keep publishing so yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And readers keep reading, so I get it.

Gary Thomas:
Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Corey Allan:
I get it, I get it. And Gary's been on before where we talked about your newest work at the time was When To Walk Away, which was a fantastic conversation and a fantastic book. I love the fact that you're willing to, let's take a look at some of these things that haven't always been dressed up well in Christianese, I guess is one of the ways to talk to think about it. But where I want to spend some time with you today, Gary, and thank you again for the time, is you wrote a book called Cherish, the one word that changes everything for your marriage. And I want to start with just the idea of where did that idea come from on how... I'm always interested in the seminal moments, if you will, of how an idea is born and then becomes something. But then I want to steer it towards more away from the global idea of the word of cherish and your marriage, but more on your sex life too. Since this is Sexy Marriage Radio, right. So go with how did that come to be other than the fact that you just constantly are writing. But how did that one particular idea bubble up to the surface?

Gary Thomas:
Yeah. Well, I've done about 20 books and three of them I feel like were dropped into my lap.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
The first was actually Sacred Pathways, nine different ways that we relate to God and people often ask me where did that come from? And I explain I felt more like an archeologist and an architect. Usually when you're writing a book, it's like an architect. Here's where the front door goes. How wide are the walls? Where's the ceiling? I felt I was discovering something. If you look at the proposal and what came out, they're so different.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
I don't like to get too mystical, but I really feel like that book was given. The second one was Sacred Marriage where it was just an unfolding revelation that what if God designed marriage to make us holy more than to make us happy. How I could look at marriage from a new light, how God can use it turn me another person.

Gary Thomas:
Third one is Cherish. It's a word that was hiding in plain sight.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
It's a word that almost all of us utter on our wedding day. I promise to love and to cherish until death do us part. And Corey, I don't think I even thought of the word cherish for another 20 years.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
Look, Madonna had a song, the association had a song that was great, but... and David Cassidy actually covered it. So, but other than listening to '70s and '80s music, it just didn't even cross my mind until I felt like God challenging me saying, you made this promise to your wife. I want you to discover what it means and learn to apply it. And I was really astonished at the difference it made... For me, it lifted the bar.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
Love focuses me on my obligations. I want to sacrifice, I want to serve, I want to be faithful. I want to be committed, I want to be loyal. All great things. Cherish focuses me on the beauty, the excellence of my spouse. And so instead of Lisa feeling like I'm with her because I made a promise and I can't go anywhere else, it's delighting in her, affirming her. It's an entirely different experience. And I don't think... They're not at war, they compliment each other.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right, right.

Gary Thomas:
But it creates an entirely different marriage when your goal isn't just to love your spouse, but to love and cherish your spouse.

Dr. Corey Allan:
I like that because I think the way I've come across in going through it was a lot of the world, just like what you're describing. A lot of times we take these things for granted and then married life and relationships start to evolve into this world of just, "Okay, how do I just survive it?" Right?

Gary Thomas:
Yeah, yeah. Grit my teeth. Hang in there.

Dr. Corey Allan:
How do we just make sure it lasts because, and this is one of the things I keep coming across just recently with a lot of my clients is, they're holding onto the idea of marriage more than they are the idea of their partner.

Gary Thomas:
Yes, yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And in the tough times, I'm okay with that. Let's just be honest, right. If that keeps you in it, done. Let's do it because I want you to take the commitment seriously, but you also have to look at who you're committing to, which then calls us to a whole another level you're describing, right. It's just this idea of, "Okay, I need to move into, this is not a self-serving thing and it's also not an idealistic system thing. This is about the person that, that thing is involving, right."

Gary Thomas:
Yes. And I would tell husbands and wives pursuing cherish just creates a different dynamic. I quote a pastor in there who had seven leaders, just men. He had other leaders but he was just with the men. And these were the leading guys in the church. A lot of people looked up to him and he just wanted to find out what was going on. So he asked them, "How many of your wives love you?" And all seven hands went up. Then he said, "How many of your wives like you." Every hand went down, which means every husband felt loved.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
Wife is a good woman. She's not going to leave me because she loves me. But at best they felt tolerated.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And I would just say to the wives, when a guy feels tolerated at best, you're a good Christian woman. I know you're not going to leave me. We have to, by intention and discipline, do what a cherished husband does naturally. It doesn't bring out that natural response.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And guys, the same thing is true with your wife. That a wife who feels cherish in a world where she's often ignored. Where a world, I guarantee you she is taken for granted by her kids.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
In a world where as she gets older, she becomes invisible.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
Earlier at an age when her beauty might've been celebrated and whistled at, and it even bothered her. Now, she realizes that game is passed. A wife who feels like she comes home to a husband who cherishes her, I'll tell you, there's not much she wouldn't do for that man because this is not a world where we're cherish. This is not a world we're even noticed or appreciated. And so coming home to a husband who appreciates her, guys, if we can do that, so many other issues of marriage just become a natural response instead of, "Well, I should do this because this is the right thing to do."

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right? Okay. And so you're familiar with Sexy Marriage Radio, Gary. And you and I've talked before and one of the things I always want to do with our shows is I love the things that call us to more, but we also have to get into the weeds of how.

Gary Thomas:
Yes.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right, because this is a conflictual idea that on theory and on paper an ideal, yes, absolutely. We all would agree. I imagine everyone in SMR nation's going to be nodding along, right. Absolutely. But there is the human side of us that's manipulative and I want this, but I don't know how to give it. And if I give it, I will have something attached to it or maybe it's just me. I'll own this then as the... Maybe no one else wrestles with this monster within. But I definitely do have, yeah, I want to be called to that. But man, I often have so many strings attached to it. So or another way to think of this too, that I was writing down as you were talking is we want this, but I don't know if I necessarily got the energy to give it.

Gary Thomas:
Yes. Yeah, I get it.

Dr. Corey Allan:
So what do I do with this?

Gary Thomas:
Well, you don't, okay.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
This isn't natural. They always say familiarity breeds contempt.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
Right, and I think there's some truth to that. But here's what I found, and this is what I love about the things that God calls us to because they push us to dependence on God. The wonders of... I believe the Christian faith is that it's not God saying, do this, jump higher, run faster. It's, you can't do this but I'm promising you my Spirit to carry you to that point.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
And here's our hope. The perfect God who cherishes the imperfect us is more than capable of instructing us and empowering us to cherish our imperfect spouse. I realize I'm calling spouses to cherish imperfect people, according to James 3:2, stumble in many ways.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right, right.

Gary Thomas:
So the Bible's not idealistic about human nature. It's the opposite.

Dr. Corey Allan:
That's true.

Gary Thomas:
It's sentimental.

Dr. Corey Allan:
That is true.

Gary Thomas:
So how do we get there? First, for me, it was remembering that I made a promise.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
I said I wouldn't just love my wife, I would cherish. So I had to have this intentional thing. Okay, now then second, understanding what that means. Third, Romans 12:2 says, "We're transformed by the renewing of our minds."

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
And so I realized, okay, I have to learn to think about my wife differently. And so I was looking for this image that we could hold onto. And the image I settled on was the garden of Eden. And here's where I think we begin. There was a brief period of time when Eve was literally the only woman in the world.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
So Adam couldn't compare her to, well, her hair isn't as thick or as curly. She's not as athletic or curvy or whatever it might be.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right, right.

Gary Thomas:
For all Adam knew this is what a woman is and this is what a woman is supposed to be. And of course Adam was the same thing to Eve. He defined for her what a man is. So I believe when we get married to cherish, we have to stop comparing and learn to make a commitment of contentment. You can shop when you're single, but on the day you get married. Okay, this is my Adam, this is my Eve. The only man, the only woman in the world. I'm not going to compare him to anyone else. I'm not going to compare her. And I would just ask the listeners, what has comparing ever got you. When you compare your spouse's weaknesses to another spouse's strengths, does it make you feel better?

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
I mean, 10 minutes you've torn them apart in your mind. You say, "Oh, I feel so much better about my life and marriage.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah, so longing to be with them and hang with them and yeah.

Gary Thomas:
And it discourages your spouse because even though they don't see your mind, they see the effects. And so a key verse I kept coming back to in the book of Cherish was Song of Song 6:9. It says, "My dove, my perfect one is the only one." Now that's spoken of the husband to his wife. And I would say to every guy, that's what your wife wants. That's what makes your wife feel cherished. That's why wives have this visceral reaction to pornography.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
Because sometimes guys don't get why they go into PTSD if they find out their husband's been looking because they want that. They want, I want to be the only one.

Dr. Corey Allan:
The only.

Gary Thomas:
I want you to fill your eyes with me. And so when we're comparing them, then that's.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah. It's a thing that just sets it up to where they can't compare. I mean, that's what it boils down to, right.

Gary Thomas:
Right. Right, and so I mentioned this in my book, Sacred Marriage. I began praying this prayer early on and I don't know why I started. I'd never heard somebody pray this prayer, but I just remember praying, God, let Lisa define for me what a beautiful woman is. Let her be the plumb line to me of the most beautiful woman in the world. Now I believe God answers prayers. He wants his daughters to be cherished. He wants his daughters to be wanted, adored, and celebrated. It's a work of his handy work and Corey, God answered that prayer, so that today if I'm attracted to a woman it's because there's something about her that reminds me of Lisa.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Because she's the standard bearer for you.

Gary Thomas:
Yes.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
And, and what I didn't realize, this is what helps when you've been married 35 years, I prayed that in my twenties. Now, looking back 35 years, what I love about that prayer is my definition of the most beautiful woman in the world ages with my wife.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
And I never wanted to be that 50 something dad ogling his twenty-something daughter's friends.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And so when your beauty is set on your wife, here's the thing I would say to guys, that's what brings satisfaction.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
I get to have sex regularly with the woman I desire above all others.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And when you talk to guys that are heavily dealing with porn or other issues, the one thing you never hear is satisfaction.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
That's an obsession. In fact, if they've seen it before, it doesn't work. They want to see something new.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And so this really sets us up. What I love about this course... And this is just the ways of God. It satisfies the husband. It satisfies the wife. The wife feels adored and wanted as she gets older and becomes invisible to others or despised by others and it satisfies the husband. It's win-win. In the world's view of beauty and sexual appeal, it's lose-lose because even the supermodels have to be airbrushed.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right. We'll be back with more of our conversation right after this. We've long talked about how marriages have struggles. Life has struggles, but you're not alone. If something is interfering with your wellbeing or preventing you from achieving your goals, there's help available. Without the help of a great therapist at several different points in my life, I wouldn't be experiencing the life, marriage, and family that I have today. So this is where BetterHelp comes into play for you. BetterHelp can help assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. In many cases, you can start communicating with the therapist in under 24 hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self-help. This is professional counseling done securely online. You simply log into your account anytime, send a message to your counselor. You can get timely and thoughtful responses plus schedule weekly video or phone sessions. BetterHelp is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free for counsel... for you to change counselors if needed.

Dr. Corey Allan:
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Dr. Corey Allan:
So I mean you've kind of touched on it that when we're dealing with this on a marital level that it's something that we're being called to, but how does this also play out specifically in our sex life? Because you're setting it up in the sense that I love the framework that our marker for a target, if you will, is our spouse. That because then it evolves in... I mean I think of this with Pam 26 years in, in that man, what we have created together and what I've been along and a part of with her makes it all the more sweet.

Gary Thomas:
Yes.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
Yes.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Because it's something that I can see her and... Yeah, I've got memories of who she was on the wedding night and early on. But man, that's not the same person nor do I want it to be on who I'm with now. And so when you're talking about that on a marital level, I see that. But what happens when we bring this to this whole concept of cherishing, when it comes to our sex life. What happens then?

Gary Thomas:
It's been, to me the surprise, it's been one of, I think the biggest transformations of how I've used sexual intimacy in marriage.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
Lisa and I were going on a trip not too long ago and we picked up the mail as we're going out the door. Lisa's going to read it while I'm driving and there was this Christian women's magazine that we don't normally get and that somebody had sent it to us for something and Lisa's looking at the cover and it had seven steps to add zest to your sex life or something like that.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
And Lisa looks at me and goes, "Oh baby." And so she opens it up and then" 30 seconds later she flips through. She goes, "Oh." And she just puts it down.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And I go, "What?" She goes, "You wrote it." And that's why they sent it to us. It was one of the contributor copies.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
And it's not a slam, but what she's saying is if you know it, I know it.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
There's nothing for me to gain by this article. But what I love about that is when it comes to sexual intimacy and marriage, it's not just about what we know.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
It's how we apply it that counts. And that's where I think cherish changes the same act with a different attitude. We so focused on knowledge and look, for younger couples that are just getting started, there are some issues in marriage. You need the mechanics, they're helpful. I'm not talking them down at all.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
But a lot of us after a while when you've been a decade in, two decades in, you kind of understand the mechanics. But what you do with what you know is what matters.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And what I've found is that cherishing preserves the best parts of sex while protecting us from the most ruinous aspects of sex.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
It's a key statement and I want to repeat it if it doesn't-

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah, that's totally worth it.

Gary Thomas:
Cherishing preserves the best parts of sex while protecting us from the most ruinous aspects of sex. Here's what I mean. When sex is healthy, a woman, not an act, a woman is desired and cherished throughout all stages of life. So I learn to use sex to cherish my wife. When sex isn't healthy, I use my wife to cherish sex.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
So now I'm celebrating an act.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
My wife is the only one willing. So I'm using her to enjoy sex. But in marriage it's turned around if I use the act to cherish my wife to say I celebrate your beauty, I celebrate your desirability, I celebrate your pleasure, I get more pleasure out of pleasuring you than in receiving it.

Dr. Corey Allan:
I like that. I mean that's almost like a well duh statement on how it changes so much. That here's the one thing that comes out to me. Because I kind of touched on this just a minute ago too Gary that this is something we want, right. That I want to be cherished. But is there also see the flip side of this? Can it also be true? Can I also have parts that I struggle with when I'm cherished? Like receiving being cherished can... is that possible?

Gary Thomas:
Oh yeah. I deal... see this with women all the time when it comes to sex. Because they say, "My husband." They look in the mirror, right. Pink had a song, I'm my own worst enemy whenever I look in the mirror.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
And here's what I want to say to wives. If your husband isn't rewiring his brain with porn, if he's having sex with you regularly, the oxytocin released in his brain literally makes you appear more beautiful than other women and other women less beautiful.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
So when I pray that my wife defines for me the most beautiful woman in the world, I can say that with sincerity. The neurological impact of oxytocin is to create renewed affection, bonding and appreciation. And it shapes our tastes. In the same way, if you grew up in Japan, you would have a very different breakfast than if you grow up in Detroit.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right, right.

Gary Thomas:
And you would like it, you prefer that breakfast. So I would say to you wives, if you regularly have sex with your husband, and he's being faithful in not ruining his mind.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
When he says he finds you the most beautiful woman receive it because to him you are. And God wants you to... See this God's brilliant plan. He wants you as a piece of His creation to be particularly admired and celebrated and desired and cherished. And so by you having regular sex with your husband, you're becoming the most beautiful in the world... woman in the world to your husband. It's not a game. It's not an act. It's not a ploy so that he can get his joy in.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
It really is a spiritual reality that God has worked into marriage. It's wonderful what God does and then a woman and a man can be so satisfied on so many different dimensions in 30 to 45 minutes.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right. And that's what's kind of... If we were to wrap this whole part up, that the whole concept of cherish, not only it calls us more towards how we go after and treat and define our mate. It also defines in some regards, when you keep it correct and the aligning the way you're describing it, it defines the acts we do with each other to where they do become a win-win. Because I keep hearing these things with this idea of, yeah, I have to constantly make sure my strings that I'm attaching to things are coming from goodness more than anything else. If they're there, right. Because we still have a desires and things, but how do I also put it into a bigger than just an act? It's actually an experience and an essence of each other. That's I think what calls us towards the long game of this, yes?

Gary Thomas:
Yes, yes it does. And it really... What I love about cherishing Corey is that it focuses me... Am I supposed to call you Dr. Allan? I don't want to give you.

Dr. Corey Allan:
You're fine. You're doing perfectly fine, man. We're just two dudes talking right now. Let's go.

Gary Thomas:
It focuses me on the positive. I think we do need to play defense spiritually fighting against temptation.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
When I'm really focusing on cherishing my wife, that's shuts off a lot of temptations.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And it helps us move forward and deals with other issues. Let's.. Because every guy is different and every woman is different. Every body is different. Every mind is different. But I've just found, particularly as my wife gets older, we're in our 50s now, what it can do for her sense of worth that she knows she can still make my heart stop.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And she... It's not about competing with other images or famous people or women 30 years younger than her. She knows... Boy, this is getting vulnerable and maybe a little bit explicit, but look, your show does that all the time, right, so.

Dr. Corey Allan:
We try to, at least.

Gary Thomas:
I've always thought that a woman's back is underrated in beauty.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
I don't know why. Maybe I'm just weird, but Lisa knows that. And if I come out of the shower and Lisa's laying in bed looking away from me with just the right kind of lighting and... So I'm just seeing her there.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Yeah.

Gary Thomas:
She knows. Kaboom, right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
That's all that's needed. That's all that's necessary, yeah.

Gary Thomas:
My sister... She's stolen my heart with one glance, the Song of Songs. And so... But that gives her a certain power over me.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
It gives her certain affirmation. I cherish you.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
I'm the only one that gets to see this. And it's a holy thing that God wants us to need each other to appreciate each other in privacy. To keep that... I... I was going to say I cherish that about my marriage. I'm not trying to use a play on words, but-

Dr. Corey Allan:
No I get you.

Gary Thomas:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And this is where the... That's the power of this whole idea that because what you... And this is what we've always tried to do with SMR is, think of this in the context of what we get to create in married life. And for sure sex within married life is this secret, intimate, sacred, to take one of your words of a title, marriage. That, that's something that is just us and there is no price tag that can compare with what that can become when it is what it is capable of.

Gary Thomas:
Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
I love that.

Gary Thomas:
The biblical imperative, I know that doesn't sound very sexy to say biblical imperative, but it is for women to cherish their husbands acts of love. The Song of Songs begins... and this is unbelievable. Songs of Songs 1:2, it's a familiar verse, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth. For your love is more delightful than wine." Now that word love in Hebrew is God. It's not feelings. It's acts of lovemaking and when she says it's more delightful to me than wine, I just want to take women back 3,000 years when this was written. You didn't have coffee in the morning.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
You didn't have dark chocolate in the afternoon.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
You didn't get to wear silk. That was invented in China, not in where Solomon was.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
You didn't get to binge watch Netflix. You didn't have painkillers.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
All right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right, right.

Gary Thomas:
One thing in the ancient world gave women pleasure like nothing else. It was wine.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Okay.

Gary Thomas:
It could deaden the pain. It could give you delight. It was one thing that the Bible celebrates and here's what she's saying, out of the highest pleasure in the world. I mean, the day women missed this because we have a lot of pleasures, but today, here's a woman saying this 3,000 years ago, there is no greater pleasure for me then when my husband's kissing me all over.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
When he's all over me, that is more delight. There's no greater pleasure in the world. She is cherishing his acts and that's what I just would tell wives that's what your husbands want. Not to be loved but not liked. They want you to hear sometimes if I could get very explicit, however you describe your husband's genitalia.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
Just if you would tell him, I need this. I can't wait until you get home.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
And I can... Whatever words you would use.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
If you want to make your man feel cherished and desired and wanted. If you want to add a new element into your lovemaking. Instead of making it an obligation, just say, man, I'm... Boy, I mean I need.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
What... Fill in the blank.

Dr. Corey Allan:
I get it. So Gary, next time we talk I'm going to see if I can find a topic that you get passionate about, okay.

Gary Thomas:
It's been [crosstalk 00:33:41] for me [crosstalk 00:33:41].

Dr. Corey Allan:
I totally... That is totally felt just listening to you talk about this because... But I have to commend it to just because it is something that can be so life-giving just to think of it in the sense of, okay, this is not just about grit my teeth and bear it and survive it. And yeah, we might have seasons and times of that. Absolutely. That's life. But this is a calling to something more of what we can actually experience and that's the thing I love being able to possibly present to people is that, wait, there's a lot more going on and so let's be called to that because this thing's not over right. We don't just survive it. We keep going through it and live it and take everything I can out of it in the experience. And so I love just the framework that you're describing and want to offer up to the members of the SMR nation. Tell them how they can find more of you if they want to pick up one of the books that aren't a chore at all for you to write apparently. How do they find more of you?

Gary Thomas:
Yeah, well garythomas.com. garythomas.com that's where you can get... There's a tab to see the books and you can read about the books a little bit and see some excerpts and whatnot. It's where all my tags for social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram are on there.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Perfect.

Gary Thomas:
And also a blog on marriage.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right.

Gary Thomas:
That they can see right there too.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Perfect. Gary, thank you so much for joining me for this time. And I'm curious about where are our extended contents about to go because I am interested in your take on where we're about to go. So thanks again man.

Gary Thomas:
Thank you.

Dr. Corey Allan:
So it's fascinating to me Pam, that before I ever got a chance to actually talk to Gary Thomas, he is the one guy that I didn't like.

Pam Allan:
Why?

Dr. Corey Allan:
Because he wrote Sacred Marriage, which is a lot like Naked Marriage in the sense that marriage is designed to do more than just make us happier.

Pam Allan:
Oh, and you're mad that he got to it before you-

Dr. Corey Allan:
He got to it before I did. What if it was designed to make us holy, that's his premise.

Pam Allan:
Right, right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And then we take the premise with the show and the Naked Marriage, my book, of what if it's designed to just help you grow up?

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Right. So it was a phone conversation we had off the air about that. I'm like, "Dude, I have to tell you straight out that I didn't like you at first when I first came across your work." He just laughed about that because he's like, "Oh, I can understand that. I get it." So, but it is such a great conversation to have with people that just have a passion about marriage and relationships, spirituality. So, so I'm so glad that we've been able to have him on a couple of times now just because he brings it.

Pam Allan:
Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan:
And the whole concept of being called to cherish, that's a striving for us all.

Pam Allan:
Right.

Dr. Corey Allan:
Well that's been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone, we want to know 214 702 9565 is how you can call and let us know. Or email us at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com where every email that comes in is read. Sometimes they're answered straightforward just between the emailer and sometimes they become shows. So when you're locked up with each other, reach out. We want to help you out. If there's something going on we can touch on. So whatever you've been doing, and however you've chosen to listen, we thank you again for taking some time out of your week to spend it with us. We'll see you next time.