Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, SMRnation.com.
You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Well, to those of you in the SMRNation that live here in the states, Happy Thanksgiving.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Gobble, gobble week.

Pam Allan: Gobble, gobble week.

Corey Allan: Here in the nation. As we're spending the time with family, we hope you are too, and perhaps you're listening to this en route and if so, travel safe.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Corey Allan: Take advantage of the free coffee if they're offering that at state lines at the rest areas every so often. That used to be around, I don't know if that's still a thing?

Pam Allan: And make the calories that you eat count.

Corey Allan: Or just have a whole lot of fun and eat some really good stuff.

Pam Allan: Well, there is that too. There is that too.

Corey Allan: Well, this is Sexy Marriage Radio, where we are so honored that you join us each and every week and you let us know what's going on and the way you do that is you call us at (214) 702-9565, or you can email us feedback at SexyMarriageRadio.com. We mentioned before last week that there's a couple other two-day quick mini conferences coming up.

Pam Allan: Yes.

Corey Allan: So save the date. February 4th and 5th and March 25th and 26th.

Pam Allan: Here in McKinney, Texas.

Corey Allan: Yes, and we'll give you more details, but save the date. At this point, that's what we want you to do. If you want to come, it's free, but we'll give you a whole lot more details of what's going to be going on, but save the dates in 2022. If you want to come, do a quick deep dive, be the part of the audience-

Pam Allan: Deep dive, a nice date for you and your spouse.

Corey Allan: If you live in the DFW area or nearby, please come. Just drive on in, but if you want to come in from other parts of the country, feel free, but we'll give you more details next week, but save those dates.
Coming up on today's free regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio and the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, we're pulling out a episode from the archives. Just because this time of the year, what we've got going on, we're pulling out the favorites from in the past. This is one where for a bulk of the episode, Dr. Laurie Mintz joins me again where we're talking about her work and her book on too tired for sex. There's also, in the free version, there's a couple of segments. She's only on one and then we do one. But this is one that's in the top 10 as far as download numbers, and so we figure it's worth sharing it again, because sometimes when you think about the holiday seasons, you just get tired.

Pam Allan: You do.

Corey Allan: So we want to help head that off at the pass, where don't be too tired for sex though.

Pam Allan: It's enough already and you just needs some sleep.

Corey Allan: Oh, that's coming up on today's show.

Laurie Mintz: Hi there, I'm a new listener to the show. I really enjoyed it so far. I've already picked up a number of tips, I suppose, that will be helpful in my sexual relationship with my wife. I'm just calling in because going back through some of the older episodes, I'm kind of backtracking here, got to number 376, Someone Has To Lead. You make a comment in there about how as part of that leading process, if he wants oral sex, he should just go for it and the onus is on the wife to say no.
I'm a rape crisis counselor and hearing that made me very uncomfortable. I've got no doubts that you and Pam have the best of intentions in saying that, and I would like to think that your audience being interested in this topic, particularly Sexy Marriage Radio is more informed than the general public. Unfortunately, my experience in working with victims of sexual assault is that there is a very much a sense of entitlement within men that we get to do whatever we want and there is a problem with the woman if they say no, if they don't want it. And if they don't speak up, then that's tacit permission to do whatever they want. That's not legal and not the case. So I was just wondering if you could circle back around, maybe clarify that, or even talk about just that topic of consent within marriage and how that remains an important part of the marital sexual relationship? Thanks for putting on the show, and I hope I get to hear my question on there.

Corey Allan: Again, I love the fact that the sexy imagination is so engaged.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And brings up things that are like, "Wait, in my circumstance with the population I work with, that advice, be careful with it." I totally understand what he's saying.

Pam Allan: Right. Right. I mean, the conversation I think we're having, correct me if I'm wrong, Corey, is not ... we're wanting to open those lines of people talking, right? So hopefully husband and wife, there's some communication as what's acceptable on one side of the table and what's acceptable on the other side of the table. It's also, there's a little bit of an assumption that there's not ... well, there's sexual trauma that all kinds of people have had it in their lives.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Pam Allan: Whether it's actually rape or it's just ...

Corey Allan: Abuse ...

Pam Allan: ... abuse, you name it, across the board. There's certainly, hopefully within that marriage relationship, there's an understanding of the past that your spouse has had as well.

Corey Allan: Sure.

Pam Allan: So fill us in on what you were thinking on that regard crosstalk.

Corey Allan: The purpose of that entire episode was someone has to lead, mainly is the idea that sex does not happen by accident. Some of the ways us nice guys, because I would consider myself a recovering nice guy, because that's Dr. Glover's work and where you try to be very subtle, manipulative, covert to get what you want without asking for it, without seeking it.
One of the things I've found in working with a lot of husbands is when you're really timid and you're trying to read the signs and not necessarily ask for permission but ask for what you want in more timid, subtle ways, that's desire killer. That's a, it just squashes things. It takes away some of the rawness of us and the power of us. Because I believe a wife is responsive, I think women are designed to be responsive in general. Not aggressive. Men are the ones that are more aggressive and that's kind of what he's alluding to because there's been, there is definitely a lean in the society of men have an entitlement mantra. That's been changed and challenged a lot lately in our culture, with the Me Too movement that's been going and it's been an empowering of women and an encouraging of people to speak up.
But the premise of what I was saying on if you want something, just go for it, is built on the idea that both people involved are respected and honored and that if there is a no, it's honored as a no. Because no is always no, in my mind. In marriage and in any other relationship. You say no, it's honored. If it's not, you take the steps that are necessary that you can to address it. To remove yourself, to move on, to come back to it. In marriage, the sophistication of that relationship allows a lot more conversation, which is what you're describing of, I can not only bring in my past and here's what's going on and here's where this is going to be some trigger points, some pain points, some issues that this is going to likely happen based on what's happened in me. So hopefully you'll be respectful and honoring and gentle around these areas.
But there's still an element of, I believe marriage is best when both parties can stand up and claim their power, claim their presence, claim their value, claim their worth as a human being and not take an entitlement mindset with the relationship. Because that's one of the things that comes to my mind from his question, is his voicemail makes me ask the question of, does saying I do mean consent?

Pam Allan: I would say no.

Corey Allan: I would say no as well, but I think sometimes there's a belief of, "Oh, well that ... yeah. Not that I have access to everything at any time, but that I have access to sex at any time. Yeah, you said I do." That's going a little far because in this instance of a male versus a woman, you're invading her body. So it's seeing this as there is an element of needing consent, but I think of it more in a marital context. This is where we might, this might come down differently than what he's kind of pointing out because with the culture of, if you are a rape crisis counselor and you're in that culture, there's a lot of times where that stuff is reported later because you just felt powerless in the moment to say no, or you did say no, and it wasn't even honored and you were powerless to do anything about it. Because of just the different in physical strength.
In marriage, you have more leverage, in a sense, of, hold on. I can still bring some weight to this, and in the relationship, if it happens repeatedly, if I'm completely disrespected in that regard. But I love the mindset of if I'm building a marriage on trust of the two people, that if I'm taking a lead and I'm the higher desire and I have more interest in eroticism or adventure or novelty or edgy things, I have to take my cue and trust in my wife to say no in the things she's not interested in. There is an element of consent, sometimes is an unspoken thing if ... until you get the information of no. So it's actually not really consent, it's a ending of it. It's an altering of it.

Pam Allan: Okay. So then that brings the question of ... because I'm certain that there's, I'm assuming there's listeners out there that they're too timid. Maybe their background says they can't say no.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Pam Allan: Right? So how do they that if they feel like they are being invaded and they're offending a spouse ... That's a lot more deep, that's a whole big, deeper conversation-

Corey Allan: The way you're asking that question, Pam, makes me think their concern likely isn't, "I'm offending my spouse if I say no." It's, "How do I I confront myself to, what is it that makes me feel like I can't say no? What is it that's making me feel like I have to be subjected or submissive or powerless?"

Pam Allan: Powerless is really the key, right?

Corey Allan: On these. Because in some instances, we can claim powerlessness when we really do have power.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Right? We do that a lot in life where, "Oh, I'm just stuck. I don't know what inaudible." Go completely different context, how often do you hear your kids, "I don't know how to do this"? It's like, hold on. You're not powerless here. Think about it, pull back. So it's looking at it and relying on our ability as humans to ... and then in the context of a marriage, our ability and the strength of a relationship to have those conversations that in some of those senses, they're not right in the moment. You talk about those after the fact, before the fact, as you're doing the state of the union conversations of, "You know what, this is a pattern where I felt like you've pushed it too far and you didn't honor my signals or my statement, and so I'm going to have to draw a more strict boundary to show the importance me in this. If that's not honored, I may have to get some other people involved," as in a counselor, as in someone to help make ...
I've had some clients that have come in before that, "I can't trust him because I said no and he didn't stop," and so we had to reestablish some code between them and some respect between them, because it was one where just got caught up in the moment. It was like, "I had no intent of really harming them the way it came across."

Pam Allan: With being received.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: A lot of that is ... that does not at all excuse it and that does not at all make it okay. It just makes it to where you have to address it better.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because again, a lot of these things, when you're talking about consent in marriage, I would've ... anytime you're going to start doing something new, I would venture to say it's probably good to get an idea of how your spouse is thinking or what they would think about that. Don't just try something new.

Pam Allan: Yeah, if it's a way outside the box, you mean?

Corey Allan: Yeah. If you're really pushing something, you probably want to say, "You know what, hold on." Because if you just all of a sudden tie them up and start doing things, it's like, "Wait, I don't feel like it." No, because that's going too far. You've broken the bounds of the relationship in the context of that you've created.
But there is still an element, I think it's inherent on each party to claim their power and the ability to say no and the ability to say yes.

Speaker 6: The art of marriage is really the art of keeping up to date with your partner, of staying on track with your own and each other's life goals as they emerge, exist, and change. It's about supporting each other and staying connected emotionally, intellectually, physically, and spiritually. Marsha Berger, LMFT.
A great marriage doesn't happen by accident. Deeper connection with your spouse doesn't happen by accident either. Have you reached the point in your marriage where there's a slow creep of discontent or disconnect? When was the last time you talked with your spouse about anything other than the schedule, work, or kids? What if there was a way to be reminded on a weekly basis to touch base with your spouse?
The State of our Union helps you remember and discover what brought you together in the first place. It's a tool designed to help couples keep the important from being replaced by the immediate. Plus, this works from your own phone. 52 reminders, deepen your conversation, dream and plan together. Go to SMRnation.com/union. Connect on a deeper level today.

Corey Allan: Well, I'm welcoming Laurie Mintz back to the show. Dr. Mintz joined us on Episode 349, if I remember right, on Becoming Cliterate, with her book and the work that she is trying to ... tell me if I'm getting this right, Laurie ... she's trying to address the orgasm inequality.

Laurie Mintz: Yep, exactly. Close the orgasm gap.

Corey Allan: Perfect. The whole premise of that show that we did back then was trying to reframe the concept of sex to make it more than just the active intercourse, which I'll give you props for that because I have now jumped on that bandwagon and anytime I talk about sex, I have a clarification of, "This is not just intercourse. This is the entire thing."

Laurie Mintz: Fantastic. Oh, yay.

Corey Allan: So your work is infiltrating all throughout the Sexy Marriage Nation.

Laurie Mintz: I am so delighted. Thank you for spreading that word.

Corey Allan: That was such a great conversation that made it to where, as soon as that show was done, I immediately wrote you down on a list of, "Dr. Mintz is joining us again." So I'm so grateful you're taking some time out to spend a little bit with us again.

Laurie Mintz: I'm looking forward to it. I enjoyed talking with you last time as well.

Corey Allan: Perfect. Here's where I want to use your expertise to help kind of frame out some of the concepts and things we talk about on Sexy Marriage Radio. All right? We're not really going to head towards the Becoming Cliterate as much because we've ... not that we couldn't talk about that a whole lot more, I realize that. But I want to go towards your first book, which you wrote, it's been out a little while, hasn't it?

Laurie Mintz: Yes. Since 2009.

Corey Allan: Okay, and it's A Tired Woman's Guide To Passionate Sex.

Laurie Mintz: Yes, exactly.

Corey Allan: Where I'm hoping to go, with your blessing, is I want to talk some about just, I want to get your expertise, not necessarily in that arena right off the bat, but then that's where I want to land.

Laurie Mintz: Okay.

Corey Allan: Does that work?

Laurie Mintz: That works great.

Corey Allan: This is an email that came in from one of the listeners of Sexy Marriage Nation that she's looking for advice on how can they spice up sex when they're trying to conceive? Because the way she framed it, is it's like it's a laboratory scientific experiment because they've had difficulty. She's got a lot of different things that have come up to where, it makes it to where she's got to pee in a cup, she's got to check temperature, she's got to be aware of timing. It does turn into, it's not romantic. I thought, okay, I would love to hear Dr. Mintz' idea of how do you keep romance alive when your sex life has begun to feel like a precisely timed science project?

Laurie Mintz: Yeah. Oh, that is a tough one. My heart goes out to that woman and that couple, and I surely wish them the best with this issue we're going to talk about and with conception in general.

Corey Allan: Right. Absolutely. I'll join you on that.

Laurie Mintz: Yeah. What she's talking about is really common, that when you're trying to conceive and you're having trouble and it becomes like a science experiment and you have to do it now and it's for a purpose and you sort of lose that focus on, "Oh, this is for pleasure." I wish I had a magic bullet for her, but I don't have foolproof magic bullet, but it is a shift of attention and a shift of mindset. That is that there is no question that she has to keep up with the peeing in the cup, in the well-timed and well-orchestrated sex and all that, or intercourse, to try to conceive. But what I would try to encourage her and her spouse or partner to do is that when they are actually engaged in the actual act, to make focus on mindfulness.
I know we talked a little bit about that the last show, but basically mindfulness is where your head and your body's in the same place, where you're not distracted by thoughts, where you're really in focused on pleasure. She can't do anything about the set up, the before, the after, all that, but during the actual act, and it's going to take her a lot of effort, is to really just try to turn her brain off. Turn off the, "Is this working, isn't this working," and simply to say, "This part is, I can't control this, so I'm just going to fully immerse in the sensations and enjoy this and really sort of turn off my brain about what this is about and just focus on the pleasure." That's one thing. Then there's nothing wrong with trying some new, interesting things that will make that more enjoyable, whether that's a new lubricant, certainly checking out any lubricant for its effect on-

Corey Allan: Yeah. Make sure it's not being counterproductive to what you're trying to do, yes.

Laurie Mintz: Exactly. But certainly a vibrator would not be counterproductive. You know, a new vibrator or a lot of times people like to experiment with like a blindfold or something interesting like that. That can also help one focus internally on the sensations, so I would say ... or watch an erotic movie before, read each other erotic stories, but do anything you can to both spice it up and then during the act, really just use mindfulness. Immerse in this pleasurable sensations rather than the thoughts about what this is about.

Corey Allan: Right. I also think of, to build off of what you're describing, on just the idea of how do you make the focus shift beyond just the intercourse too, to actually focus on the entirety of your sex life. What jumps to my mind, Dr. Mintz, is this idea of have makeout sessions where there's not orgasm as a goal, where it is truly just a connection, kind of like, when you were dating and you have the opportunity to, "Hold on, this is as far as we're going to go," and maybe that helps you create that edge or that anticipatory of, "Man, I can't wait till we can kind of follow this all the way through to the end of this." And maybe just a little times ... because that's the one thing. I don't know if you come across this with the students and the people you work with and the reach that you have as a professor too, that it seems like as marriage goes on, couples stop just making out.

Laurie Mintz: Yeah, and it's funny that you mentioned that because that's a fantastic idea. I actually have that in my first book that we're talking about, that, A Tired Woman's Guide to Passionate Sex that I really recommend that for women who have low desire. Because what happens in long-term relationships, we stop having any erotic touch except when it's like, "Okay, now let's jump in bed and do this." That kind of warming up, that kind of, I tell people, like just like you're saying, think about how fun it was to make out in your parents' driveway when you couldn't go farther, and to incorporate that on an ongoing basis so that it kind of connects you again as a couple that's erotic, not just a couple trying to conceive. So I love that idea.

Corey Allan: Right, and I think you can even incorporate situational to where it's ... obviously, if you're in your own home and you're kind of at both adults and your living life and it's like, you know what, we have a whole lot more say on ... there's nobody saying you can't go this far. There's no, "I got curfew. I've got all these stringent things," but you can still have a time where you're at the mall and you get in the car to head home and you have a little makeout session in the mall parking lot. That kind of puts a little stricter of, "Oh, hold on. There's a little more taboo riskiness," and you also have, "I'm not going to go too crazy. We're not going to get in trouble," quote unquote. "But even if we do, as long as we're not lewd, we're probably all right. So let's kind of spice it up a little bit this way.

Laurie Mintz: I think that is a fantastic idea. I'm glad you mentioned it. Excellent.

Corey Allan: Well, good. So anything else? Because this is, I mean obviously, this is one of those, there's not a quick fix, like you're describing, and if either you or I or even jointly could come up with a, here's the fix, we'd be set. Because there's a lot of people trying, trying to find solutions for issues that are similar to this and then one-offs that that can help. But is there anything else? Because she even mentions that ... I didn't mention this when I was reading the email and setting it up, that they try to keep the interchange, the flirty, some of that going, which is important. But is there anything else that kind of comes to your mind that can be helpful?

Laurie Mintz: I think just, to me, I also think be gentle with yourself. If it works sometimes and it's like, "Oh, this was really fun even though it had a purpose," and if sometimes it was like, "Oh, that was awful." You know, "It felt like a chore, we were both distracted," be gentle with yourself. They're under a lot of stress, this couple. Do the best you can do but don't beat yourself up and know that this is not a permanent situation.

Corey Allan: Right. What just jumped to my mind is the possibility of creating a little bit of a role play. If this is a scientific experiment, what if you started the whole process with lab coats on? Embrace it and see if that helps at least alter the feeling right from the get go, and maybe that changes the dynamic. Who knows?

Laurie Mintz: Yeah, or other kind of role play, so anything to spice it up. If it doesn't work, again ... so spice it up, I think all that advices that we've both come up with collectively is really good and I certainly hope it helps this couple.

Corey Allan: I absolutely do too, because when you're talking about the different struggles that we have of the whole sexual arena in marriage is these apply, I think, to a lot of different circumstances. It's not just when we're having trouble conceiving, because sometimes it can be, "How do I break out of the rut?" "How do I transition to something different or spice it up or increase desire?" How can they find you? How can people of Sexy Marriage Nation that are listening to this, find you to get more?

Laurie Mintz: You can find me on my website, www.drlauriemintz.com, L-A-U-R-I-E-M-I-N-T-Z, or my books, both Becoming Cliterate and A Tired Woman's Guide To Passionate Sex are available wherever books, ebooks, audio books are sold. Barnes and Noble, Amazon, indie books, so they can go right to those sources as well.

Corey Allan: I'll put all the links to everything we're talking about, will be in the show notes at sexymarriage.net. Laurie, thank you again and all the best on what you have coming up.

Laurie Mintz: Thank you. You too.

Corey Allan: Well, Pam, it's hard to believe, but November's almost over. Christmas is almost here.

Pam Allan: 2021 is almost over. Holy cow, 2020 we thought was a blur with COVID.

Corey Allan: Yes.

Pam Allan: And 2021 is now almost gone.

Corey Allan: Well, it's been quite the year and we hope that as members of the Nation, you've been blessed, you've seen some good things, you've navigated this whole world of topsy turvy unknown, "Are we back to normal? Are we not? What's the wave," whatever, well. And we hope more importantly, maybe this has been the opportunity like you've seen we've been able to do in large part of, it's really helped us focus on what do we want to be about? And say no to other things more and be real specific with our yeses. That's really reaped a lot of rewards, and we hope to see that continue on.

Pam Allan: You just opened this can of worms at the end of the show, because I feel like I'm not saying no very often.

Corey Allan: Oh.

Pam Allan: Can of worms opened.

Corey Allan: Join us next week when we call Pam out and take her to task on how does she not say no more often?
Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. Thanks for taking your time out of the day to spend it with us this week. We can't wait to see you again next time.