Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, smr.fm. You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio.

Pam Allan: So fun to be here this week.

Corey Allan: It is. And you know what this week is.

Pam Allan: The getaway.

Corey Allan: It's the getaway. When this thing is airing, getaway starts tomorrow.

Pam Allan: Yes. Yeah.

Corey Allan: It's been a long time.

Pam Allan: Oh my goodness. Two years, the wait.

Corey Allan: Since we had the break with COVID, and so it's going to be so exciting to get back together with lots of other couples, spend four days. And if you didn't sign up and aren't planning to make it this time, never fear we'll have it again. Some changes are coming, but we'll still be doing some getaways. All that details will be unfolding later as we go along. But it also, right around the corner this week is Father's Day. So if you are still wondering what should I do? I got no clue.

Pam Allan: Yeah, help me out here. I got no clue.

Corey Allan: Well, our friend, Dennis Mercus is running a Father's Day sale. He hadn't had a sale in two years.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And so he's running a sale right now that gets you masterclasses and access to all the different techniques that he's got. And he's got some fabulous ...

Pam Allan: Well, you said Dennis, but what are the techniques for what?

Corey Allan: For massage.

Pam Allan: Massage. Very good.

Corey Allan: Thank you. For the couple's massage courses, and if you go to smr.fm/melt, M-E-L-T. That's the name of his company, is Melt.

Pam Allan: Because it makes you want to melt.

Corey Allan: And it is such a great way to get your hands on your spouse and connect and let that be the main event. Let that just be a way to unfold and unwind for an evening or let that be a foray into another arena. Because it's a great way to do this so that your hands don't get tired and you really know what you're doing then.

Pam Allan: Yeah, it's so enjoyable.

Corey Allan: So smr.fm/melt is where you can find that. Take advantage of that sale right now. And since we do have a lot going on right now, we're doing a couple of weeks of best stuffs with the episodes.

Pam Allan: Very good.

Corey Allan: And so what I did is I went back into the archives and geeked out a little bit, found the stats, and found what were the most popular ones. And so what's coming today is the most popular show we've ever done.

Pam Allan: Which is?

Corey Allan: Which is the conversation I got to have with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, a colleague of mine. We go to all the different Schnarch trainings together. And it was on the lower desire wife.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because she has a great take on that dynamic from the lower desire side of things. And so it's worth replaying because we don't ever do this very ... I mean, I think this will be the second time we've done a best of show.

Pam Allan: And it's so applicable to so many. So sometimes hearing things again, and when you're in a different stage of life, it hits home in a different way.

Corey Allan: So the conversation today is with her and I, and that's going to be both the regular version of the show and the extended.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And it's just a continuation of a dialogue all the way through. And so if you're not a member of the extended content, you're going to want to go to smr.fm/smracademy, is how you can just get the content or you can go all the way and join the academy. All that's coming up on today's show.
Well, joining me for this episode of Sexy Marriage Radio is Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, who is a woman I've come across that's a colleague because she is into the Schnarch world just like I am. And if you've been a part of Sexy Marriage Radio Nation any length of time, you've probably heard me reference differentiation or crucible or something Schnarch does because I'm a fan and I like his work and try to use his work in a lot of ways, always giving him respect. And Jennifer's in the same tribe as me, I guess you could say, but she also has some fantastic takes that are worth exploring when you're talking about just some of the dynamics that play out in marriage. And so Jennifer, thank you so much for joining the show today.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Thanks for having me.

Corey Allan: And so, Jennifer, I think let's just to start diving right in.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Sure.

Corey Allan: When you're talking about the dynamics of marriage and how we believe that sex and marriage is a sacred, blessed thing by God, but it's also one of those things that, man, it can be so cumbersome and so troublesome because when you first were meeting it was easy maybe as far as the desire goes. Sex maybe wasn't easy. But the desire probably was. And then as you get into it, all of a sudden it's not.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Right.

Corey Allan: How do you enter into that arena with people?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, first, I think it's probably good to just normalize that shift because I think a lot of people take that as a kind of pathology somehow of their marriage or of who they chose as opposed to a reality that comes out of what are the fundamental dynamics of desire. And so when you're in the falling in love stage, all the novelty, the uncertainty, the ways that your beloved expands your sense of self because now this person that you really think is attractive and you value thinks your attractive and values you and wants to be close to you and is validating of your sexual desirability, that makes us feel good about ourselves. And so we want it and we go towards it. And it's exciting because you don't necessarily know what's on the other side of that bridge. And those are all the kinds of qualities of desire.
When you make it highly legal though, when you move into marriage, right, as we do and now, for many of us, especially those who've grown up in a religious tradition around what it is to be good and sexual or what it is particularly to be a female and be good and be sexual, it often moves quickly into the obligation frame.

Corey Allan: Yes.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That if I'm a good wife or a good partner, I will have sex. God expected me to be chased perhaps before marriage and that was part of the forbidden that made it desirable. Now, if I'm doing God's will, I'm supposed to have sex and I'm supposed to like it.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And now it's highly legal, highly expected. And for those of us, who've grown up with any idea that our sexuality belongs to our partner, not to ourselves, or if I'm a good woman, in my religious tradition, you give this over to your husband. It's a gift you give him, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, then it starts to constrict your sense of self and it makes you start feeling like I don't belong to me and now my sexuality is half his and I'm supposed to because it's Wednesday and it's been three days and he's getting agitated.

Corey Allan: Right. Because this is all about just accommodating and adjusting according to the male in the relationship.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right. That's right. So it was a very male reference. It's not a self-reference. And this is precisely what will kill desire. So there's two elements here. One is just when you move into the predictability of marriage, even if you don't have those ideas, there's still a piece that we can talk about, about how you would create and cultivate desire in that more predictable, secure reality of the relationship. But then for many people, and many of the people that I work with, there's this idea that I should do this, and I'm supposed to do this, and I'm supposed to be the caretaker of his sexuality, and that kills sex and desire right out of the gate.
So now sex becomes all about duty and you take care of your kids all day, now you got to take care of your husband at night and you're kind of crawling out of your skin because you have no sense of belonging to yourself, which is very different than the experience of falling in love, where this whole experience was expanding your sense of self. Now, you feel like you're kind of shrinking into the marriage and desire cannot be fostered in that shrinking.

Corey Allan: Okay. And I love how you framed it at the very beginning of this because you're talking about one, that's a normal process of what happens in many, most, all marriages.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes, it does. Right.

Corey Allan: Because that's the one thing, if you think about it, I come across a lot of couples where one of the parties has come into it and they enjoy the relationship because it provides a sense of security and safety. But that also is a killer of desire.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right.

Corey Allan: Because that becomes the predictable, right?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right.

Corey Allan: That becomes the routine.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right.

Corey Allan: And desire needs that novelty in some regards or that unknown to expand itself.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Exactly.

Corey Allan: So at least by normalizing it, it helps people recognize it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. That's right. And then it also needs that element of authenticity and self. And most of us don't know how to do a marriage where two selves can thrive.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Referencing the Schnarch ideas that we create these sort of borrowed functioning realities in which often the higher desire person is trying to have sex to feel that they are a legitimate self, so validate me, tell me I'm enough by wanting me.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And the lower desire person is often trying to have a self by not feeling taken over or having to manage the self of the partner, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And so that's how you get into these often extreme high and low desire dynamics. They often get sort of punctuated through the immaturity that's operating within the couple.

Corey Allan: Yeah. Because you probably just described a vast number of Sexy Marriage Radio Nation listeners with that right there of the higher desire gets their identity in some regards, their value over their sexual conquest or sexual ability, their desirability, whatever it might be. And then the lower desire is spending their time just trying to, I don't want to be taken over.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right.

Corey Allan: I don't want to give myself over even. I think that's a nicer way to even say it, but it still is not nice and clean.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right.

Corey Allan: So what do you do with that then? Where do we go with that?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, as a therapist and coach that's working with people on these issues, my first goal is to expose that dynamic and to help people see it so that they can make more choices to break that dynamic and to expose that there is a borrowed functioning reality that's operating within their beds or within their marriage. Because a lot of times people can't see it. They're just like, I have no desire. I have no idea even what happened because I had it right up until the day we got married and then it was gone. And so it feels like a mystery often of what's happening. So it's helping people see why it makes good sense to not want the sex you're having. You're not broken. You have good judgment. Nobody wants to do that.
I mean, I think I've heard Schnarch say something once like you can either prop up your husband's ego or his penis, but not both.

Corey Allan: Yep. That's a great phrase.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. You're just not going to want this person if you feel like you're managing their sense of self. So I think helping people see what they're operating in and helping them confront the betrayal or self-betrayal within it, you're using your lower desire spouse to prop up your sense of self. You may think of yourself as so sexually competent and able, and you've got this broken partner. But in reality, what you're doing, there's nothing noble or virtuous about what you're doing. There's nothing strong about it. It looks like strength, but it's really weak. And to help the lower desire person see that they have taken a kind of under-functioning position, well, it depends on how you think about it, but they've taken a more accommodating position, and what they are doing is not only bad for them, it's bad for their partnership.

Corey Allan: So, how is that bad for them? Because I want to jump on ... Because one of the things I've loved about catching up on your work and just the way you're framing it is you do an excellent job, in my opinion, of framing it for women. I mean, being one helps. That's where I have an audience that I could.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Sure. You have a disadvantage in that way.

Corey Allan: I've not ever been a woman. And I can frame things for the higher desire male because that's me. But I'm curious of what is it that becomes the path for the woman in this-

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: For the woman with the lower desire, yeah.

Corey Allan: And how she's contributing, colluding-

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: In that dysfunction.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, I think for many people, and I come from an LDS background, Mormon background, and it's very much in the culture the idealization of a woman taking a kind of sidekick one-down position, in the marriage.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: This is an idealized role. You are his support. You are his helpmeet, so to speak. And your sexuality is there for the comfort sustenance of the man.

Corey Allan: Right. It exists for the husband.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Exactly. Now the thing that sometimes I think feminism, hasn't done a great job of articulating and maybe we're easy to be blind to is the upside of dependency, the temptation in a Cinderella position so to speak. Who doesn't want a prince who's going to come and take care of you, admire you, desire, you offer you a castle, and take all the anxiety of living life away? I mean who doesn't want that?

Corey Allan: Right. That sounds good to me. Yep.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Right. And so there's a lot of, how to say it, we kind of want often to hide in the shadow of a partner. Okay. And so what I would often be pushing the lower desire person on is that they may well be in a dynamic where the higher desire person is somewhat of a bully or is dominant or pressuring, or is selfish enough that his desires, let's just do it in the stereotypical male-female high desire, low desire way, is there a way is pressuring and taking up 90% of the oxygen in the marriage. So I'm going to first deal with that person very likely. If that person's not going to go anywhere with it, then I'm going to go and talk to her because she's the linchpin in that reality.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And because she's accommodating it and putting up with it, even if she's miserable, it's allowing it to be sustained in the guy.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So I'm talking to her about the fact that she's maybe taking some safety in this position. She doesn't have to stick her neck out and define a life and define a self in the world. She can think of herself as superior often. These are just some of the archetypal realities that I'm working with.

Corey Allan: I gotcha.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I can feel superior because I put up with you and your hedonism and your selfishness, and I'm the long-suffering, good one. Christ and I understand each other.

Corey Allan: I get it. I can see that. Yep.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And there was a kind of martyr superiority that is a pseudo self.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And it's easy to just ... There's a safety in it, a way you can extract a superiority, a way you can never really choose your husband and feel justified in doing that. Never really step up as a partner, feel justified. And of course, the husband's making it easy if he's doing his shenanigans in a way of taking over too much of the marriage, thinking it should revolve around him or whatever.

Corey Allan: Neither side is virtuous in this journey.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: No. Exactly right. And you can still do all that martyr and not necessarily have a dominant husband. We can talk about there's other ways in which you can still kind of do this role if you are determined enough to. And then also the self-betrayal in it, that this person has kind of bought into a system or an idea to betray their own development, disregard their own sexuality.

Corey Allan: Speak to that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Speak to that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Sure.

Corey Allan: Because I think that's the stuff that was so profound in some regards of just recognizing ... Hold on. This is about my own development that I'm stunting.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes.

Corey Allan: I'm ultimately harming myself possibly.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. Exactly. So you're referencing some of the work I do in the women's art of desire course. Is that what you're saying right now that you were saying that's ...

Corey Allan: Yes.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. So I'm talking to women a lot about this reality that they have learned to devalue their desires as a function of goodness. I'm the selfless one. I'm the accommodating one. I will do everything for everybody and neglect my own desires as a function of goodness. And many women come by this honestly. This is precisely how been taught to function in the world.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And so my workshops and my course for women and desire is very much about challenging whether or not that's even good because you're propping up bullies. I mean, to speak in the most blatant form.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: There's nothing virtuous about propping up somebody taking advantage, whether it's your child, a parent, a partner, and so helping women to start looking at the virtue of desire, which is the idea of that desire is about what allows me to reach for something beyond myself and develop my capacities and God-given gifts, inclusive of my sexuality, but not just sexuality, to develop into a stronger, more able woman who can discern about where she gives and what she offers and what she creates in the world.
So I'm very much interested in women challenging this idea that sabotaging or sacrificing their development is a virtue because in my experience it only creates resentment. It creates very non-intimate marriages because if you have no self to share, you're not going to be able to create intimacy. Full-stop.

Corey Allan: Right. It's all role-playing.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: It's all role-playing. Exactly. And many of us have learned this idea that a role-based marriage is a marriage. Well, it is a marriage, but it's not an intimate marriage.

Corey Allan: It's not one that has a tremendous depth and vibrancy and life and passion and energy. And even the flip side of it of the pain and the struggle. Because I think you know full well that it's both sides of this thing we're talking about. We don't always get the glorious side of it.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right. No, exactly. It becomes an act of two people.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And you're playing out roles and there's some security in that. And I actually think there's some function in it. I'm not here to say that there's no value in that kind of marriage. But if we want an intimate marriage, which many of us want, but we haven't quite articulated our wanting and longing for that is that we're often operating in a different model of marriage, not one that would create intimacy, not one that's about two people showing up honestly. And a lot of us want the ideal of an intimate marriage as in, I want you to validate my desirability and my goodness and my virtue, even though I don't think I'm that desirable, good, or virtuous. I want you to think I am.

Corey Allan: Right. I want you to see what I'm not, as I deem it at least.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Exactly right. So a lot of us want that validation in a marriage, but we don't necessarily want an intimate marriage because that means you have to be knowable and you have to tolerate knowing yourself and your partner and those can both be harrowing experiences. And a lot of us are very happy to hide within a role or within, I'll accommodate your desires that way I don't have to expose mine and take the risk of exposing mine.

Corey Allan: Or can it also be, that way, I don't even have to explore what mine might actually be?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Precisely.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Because for many of us, we haven't even figured out what they are because we've been so good at tucking those invitations or yearnings within ourselves away.

Corey Allan: Okay. Because that's the thing I keep coming across is, and have proposed on prior episodes of the show, that there are times when a lower desire when asked what they want and they respond with, "I don't know," that's an accurate answer.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: It's true with where they are in their process of development at that moment. They don't know.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right.

Corey Allan: But you're talking about the courageousness of venturing into, well, maybe I could figure out, and that could be a scary proposition.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right. Oh, it is terrifying. When I do these live workshops and I start talking about this, women are like, "Oh crap, now it's getting real."

Corey Allan: Now you're meddling.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, exactly. One woman came to one of my workshops, and I do this how to know what your life's purpose is in five minutes or less. It's borrowed from a TED Talk. But basically, it's just starting to ask the question, what are the things I love to do? Whom do I do these things for? What do I create, or what blesses their life through doing it? It's just starting to look at what are the gifts I have. And a lot of people are like, "Well, it's not something great. It's not something amazing. I just like organizing stuff." Well, let's just start with that. Let's look at what it is.
Well, one woman that had gone to one of these workshops, she wrote me about six months later and she just said, "I just want you to know when I first did this exercise, it was like, 'What do I do? Basically laundry or stuff for my family. Who do I do it for? My kids.' Basically, there's no me in this." And she said she went home from the workshop and she cried because she just felt like, "I know nothing about what I want."

Corey Allan: That's gut-wrenching.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: "My whole life has been wrapped around my children and I have no sense of self." But she made a commitment to herself and to God that she was going to stay open, open-hearted to start letting herself know her desires. And one of the ways I tell people to do is look at where your resentments lie because your resentments often are an indicator that you want something, but you're placing the responsibility for that desire at someone else's feet.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And so look at your resentments, that's one place to start. But also what are the things that make you brighten or lighten up? And she made this commitment to herself and she started to understand there was this part of her that really loved the idea of meditation. She had no history of it. She had tried it a couple of times. But she decided she was going to start opening herself up to it. Then she invited some friends over one night and did a yoga meditation and they loved it. They were like, "You are so good at this." Then she did it another night. And a guy came to it that was a doctor who was writing a book and said, "Would you be willing to write some meditations for my book?" Because they were so good.
And then she came to another workshop of mine, which was like a three-day, not a workshop, but a retreat. And she did these for the women and they were like, "These are amazing." So anyway, she wrote me and she just said, this was before she did it for the retreat because I actually invited her to come to the retreat and do it. But she wrote me and just said, This whole aspect of myself has started to open up. I'm so grateful for it." But she was certainly starting from a place of not knowing and now these realities are starting to become emergent and present for her because she started asking the question.

Corey Allan: Right. Because this almost sounds like what you're describing is spending the time trying to figure out is this what I want or is this what I think I should want?

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Exactly. That's right.

Corey Allan: It's kind of getting into that role versus true quintessential self.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. Or, in a Schnarch frame, reflected sense of self versus solid self. Is it what I've been told by others that I know I'll get validation for doing, or is this me? And it doesn't mean we have to live in an amoral world where we're not referencing what other people ... That's not it.

Corey Allan: That's an impossibility.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's an impossibility. But also is this something that lights me up, that makes me feel whole? There's something I referenced in ... I don't think I can this quote, but it comes from the gospel according to Thomas, which is the Dead Sea Scrolls or these scriptural texts that were found in Egypt in 1940.

Corey Allan: Right. Yeah.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So, Thomas is quoting Christ, is saying something, and this is a paraphrase, but basically, if you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And this is this idea of the parable of the talents, that you are given these gifts. And a lot of times we want to make them these lofty gifts, or we want to resent that I don't have 10 talents, therefore, I'm resentful, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Resentful and I just shut it all down rather than, what are the gifts that I have? Just inclinations, capacities, and that we have a responsibility to bless the body of Christ through developing those gifts. And that's extraordinarily important, not only for our own sense of sustenance, for saving ourselves, and to find ourselves in this good way, but also absolutely essential for the quality of our relationships. And God wants this for us. It's not in selfishness. A lot of the people I work with will get it, and is it selfish or selfless? I'm like that's the wrong question.

Corey Allan: Yes, the premise is off in that.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: The premise is off. The framing makes it so it's a question that can't be answered. And for many of my clients and people in my workshops and classes, they are asking these questions about their sexuality and about their development of self and their desires in that frame that you get stuck in either way. It's in the wrong paradigm.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Rather than a paradigm that self-development and development of the best in ourselves, allows us more capacity for deep connection with other people, not less.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And limited self-development interferes with our sexual self-development and our relational self-development.

Corey Allan: Right. Jennifer, I could talk about this for the rest of the day.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I know. It's good stuff.

Corey Allan: It absolutely is. But as we close out this segment, I need to at least tell people because I know people are going to want to know more.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Sure.

Corey Allan: So how can they find you? And I'll also put all this in the show notes.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Great. My website is my name, which is finlayson-fife.com, so finlayson-fife.com. And I have lots of podcasts, so you can subscribe to podcasts that I've been on if you want. But, there's also, I do online courses and I do live workshops for couples and individuals.
My audience is primarily LDS, in the sense that that's the group that I grew up in and also what I wrote my dissertation on. But lots of people who are not LDS, and particularly people that are Christian, find the courses to be very relevant to them because I'm not so much referencing LDS theology as I am Christian theology, Christian principles, and how they relate to our development as people.

Corey Allan: Right.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So I have a course for couples and their relationship. A course for couples and their sexual relationship. And then, one that's been very popular, which is around women's sexual self-development and self-development. So I call it, The Art of Desire, and it's a course on basically, desire and its relationship to yourself and sexual development. And then I also do one on how to talk to your kids about sex and offer your kids your values without crushing their ability to embrace their sexuality and align it with their values. Yes.

Corey Allan: Well, and as someone who's seen most of the three, the first three you talked about, I can wholeheartedly recommend them because you do great work, Jennifer.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Thank you.

Corey Allan: So, thank you so much for the time in joining me on this segment. If you're curious of hearing more of Jennifer, check out her site or also subscribe to the extended content because we're going to unpack her dissertation here in just a second. So, I think I'm going to geek out. I'm going to have fun with it. So, let's see.

Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Good.

Corey Allan: It's so refreshing again to just connect with other colleagues.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Especially that have the same kind of training and the same outlook, but they come at it just the way they spin it, with their little filter, their emphasis.

Pam Allan: Such helpful information in phrasing things differently so that hopefully, it hits home with folks that are listening

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And by the way, babe, congratulations on another tax season being done.

Pam Allan: Oh, praise the Lord. Thank you very much. Thank you for supporting and taking care of everything else that I wasn't here to do.

Corey Allan: It's great to have you back.

Pam Allan: It's good to be back.

Corey Allan: Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone or you want more, there's plenty in the archives to find. Just head on to smr.fm, search back whatever topic you're interested in. We've probably covered it. And if you like what got going on, let us know. 214-702-9565. Feedback at sexymarriageradio.com. So again, we thank you for taking some time out of your day. However you choose to listen, we thank you that you do listen. We'll see you next time.