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Notes and questions about the University of Waterloo

The University of Waterloo's Computer Science undergraduate degree has an extremely good reputation. I'm trying to get a sense of whether this reputation is more than anecdotal. I would also like to know if it can be explained away by e.g. selection effects, survivorship bias, simply being a very big programme, etc.

If anyone has anything they think I should add or can answer any of these questions, let me know on Twitter!

Intro

It's a fairly modern university. Founded in 1957 though it can trace some roots back a few decades earlier. It's less weighed down by history. Harder to "confuse learning with the smell of cold stone".

One of the businessmen who founded it, Gerry Hagey, based the co-op system on systems he'd seen work effectively in the US.

It was founded with an emphasis on mathematics, and practical mathematics at that. The first head of the maths department, Ralph Stanton, "had written a textbook on numerical analysis, a branch of mathematics that is closely aligned with computing. In 1960, the university established its Computing Centre, and suddenly math had a practical application. The department grew so quickly it was expanded in 1967 into a separate faculty, the first in North America". - Source

Because the faculty became so big so quickly, they seem to have received lots of equipment donations from e.g. IBM and DEC.

Wes Graham was the first director of the Computer Science faculty and seems to have established a culture with a lot of autonomy for faculty and researchers. He seems to have played an important role in seeding a tech ecosystem around Waterloo. He created the Waterloo Fortran Compiler (WATFOR) which was apparently a very useful tool for teaching students programming and was adopted by many places around the world.

Graham seems to have focused research and teaching on how to use computers effectively when most research was focused on building computers. You could imagine an innovative faculty adopting a similar attitude to AI today.

Under Doug Wright in the 1980s, the UW let individuals retain the IP from their research. This is often cited as something that makes Stanford particularly innovative.

How selective/expensive is UW compared to other Canadian universities?

Anecdotally UW Computer Science is very selective but not more so than e.g. the University of Toronto which doesn't have the same reputation.

UW is apparently no more expensive than other Canadian universities, and Waterloo is a cheaper place to live than Toronto or Vancouver.

What is the dropout rate from UW?

Some claims suggest only 60% to 80% of the matriculating class graduate.

What is the average salary for CS grads from Canadian universities and how does UW compare?

  • How many UW Waterloo grads move to the US and therefore have easier access to higher wages?

  • Things to consider when estimating graduate salaries:

    • Conversion between Canadian and US dollars.
    • Are they including sign-on bonuses in total comp?
    • Are they weighting options by how many have actually vested?
    • Because tech salaries are so big in the US and in particular the Bay Area, the biggest predictor of graduate salaries is going to be the proportion of graduates who move. And because it's fairly easy to move from Canada to the US this proportion is likely to be quite high. So it's necessary to look at both Canadian and US salaries to see how UW students are doing relative to graduates from other North American universities.

Are there any other metrics e.g. startup founders or famous researchers that UW has overachieved on?

"Pre-Internet era, Microsoft hired more undergraduates from the University of Waterloo than any other school globally. Every new tech leader in every new tech era since then has secretly tapped this source of talent." - Source

What is the teaching syllabus at UW? What is the teaching style? Is it noticeably different from other universities?

The degree (including co-ops) takes 5 years, including working during summer. That's significantly more time than a 3-year British degree or 4-year American degree.

There is something called the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board. This body seems to set the standards that students studying engineering courses need to meet.

  • Does having an external standards body prevent grade inflation and allow for comparisons and competition among Canadian universities?

Some people have suggested that the UW CS faculty's origins in the department for mathematics differ from other universities where CS department is closer to engineering. This may be because co-op students are easier to integrate into companies creating software instead of doing physical engineering.

What is the culture like at UW?

Alumni report that there isn't much of a sports or party culture to distract people there.

Apparently, Wilfrid Laurier University, also in Waterloo, has more of a party culture.

"Extremely common and normal for people to be working on projects/hacking on a Friday night, on their own volition or otherwise ... Also not unusual for people to be working part/full-time jobs on top of school." - Source

"Much of the quality of graduates is due mainly to selection/peer effects. There are more advanced courses at UofT/Waterloo than at the other Ontario universities, but for the most part, the undergrad curriculum is the same. What changes is the quality of work expected by professors and how much you learn from your peers. At lower-ranked universities, like TMU, professors are much more lenient, final exams are easier, and grades are curved. It's sort of like how students in many fields take an introductory statistics course, but depending on which field you're in (e.g. PolSci/Biomed/Statistics/Economics) your understanding of the material drastically differs" - Source

How does the "co-op" at UW system work?

Waterloo co-ops are year-round, not just over the summer. Companies that rely on summer-only interns tend to frantically come up with made-up projects for them to do two weeks before they start. If you have a year-round supply of interns, you treat them as normal engineers who pick up actual product work. - Source

Co-op lengths are 4 months plus with an expectation of doing at least 5 varying terms or 20 months over the course of a degree.

  • Which companies take part?
  • Do they choose their interns? If so, how?
  • Are the anecdotes of great coop terms biased towards the best students who get the best internships?
  • What is the experience like for the bottom half of each year group?

How do get companies the most out of their interns and how do interns get the most out of their companies?

"I have first-hand experience from the flip-side of the Waterloo co-op program, that is, from the perspective of the employers who hire a significant number of co-op students. The reputation of the Waterloo co-op program is more than anecdotal, IMO. The co-op program eliminates the seasonality of "summer employment" by having three four-month terms every year with the students swapping between school and work terms. The entire community adapts to this cadence that ultimately influences everything from student housing to extracurriculars / socializing to the type of work employers expect from their co-ops. It takes time for a co-op program to reach critical mass both within the educational institute and the employer community, therefore, Waterloo's success can't be explained away. The University/community has a distinct advantage."

"The rule-of-thumb is that a co-op employee is about twice as productive as an experienced full-time employee doing the same work. The reason is transaction costs ;-) Full-time employees' days are filled with meetings and other administrivia that disrupt our core work. Co-op students, on the other hand, achieve a state of flow, on an almost daily basis, that would be a thing of beauty to behold if it wasn't so damn annoying ;-) Freedom takes many forms and it's hard not to be envious at times."

"The community of co-op employers are often co-op program alums and are a key ingredient in the success of the program. For the economic minded who are interested in incentives, Waterloo has perfected, IMO, a Rank/Match system where the top students AND employers quickly rise to the top. After the interview rounds, both students and employees receive sometimes harsh feedback on their perceived rank. Meritocracy is embedded in the program. Both mediocre students and employers are quickly weeded out. The true super-stars can pick any path that tickles their fancy but they can never coast. With great power comes great responsibility — Spiderman :-)"

"Every term you get a new cohort that only has a handful of courses under their belts. Every co-op goes through extensive on-boarding, mentoring, and on-the-job training by talented employees who repeat the process every four months. The co-ops themselves form tight-knit groups that span all the experience cohorts within each company. They depend on each other as much as they depend on the full-time members of the multi-disciplinary teams they work with. I think multi-year cohorts are also one of the main reasons that junior/senior high school sports programs are often beneficial compared to their same-age divisions in non-school sports leagues (e.g. hockey in Canada)."

"Although the companies are mostly high-tech, the co-op roles are not just software developers. Co-ops are integrated into HR, marketing, and tech-writing teams. Talent, aptitude, and preferences all play a part in the roles students try to get." - Source

Is there any evidence of the UW model being successfully replicated?

The University of Limerick set up a degree a few years ago which was apparently partially inspired by UW. Stephen Kinsella is involved in running this. They have funding from the Collisons.

Other Canadian universities seem to also have their own co-op systems:

  • University of Toronto
    • A single 16 month placement
  • Toronto Metropolitan University
    • 4 or 5 coop terms adding up to 16 months of co-op
  • Queen's University
    • A single 16 month placement
  • University of British Columbia
  • SMU

Other Canadian universities to look into:

  • McGill
  • Calgary
  • University of Victoria

In the US, Drexel University apparently has a substantial co-op programme.

Something which seems to make UW's programme particularly good is how they've built the degree around it. "Undergraduate majors at UW are structured to provide the flexibility to take semesters off during your work terms, with many critical courses being offered during summer sessions. There are also very few year-long courses. There are also more opportunities to find placements at UW than there are at other schools". - Source

Apparently employing co-op students is very tax-efficient for Canadian companies (on top of students probably being cheaper than graduates). Is there a policy lesson that other countries could take away from this?

Does having a large cohort of fellow students help?

People underestimate the sheer number of people enrolled. The off-stream (people doing a co-op term at a company are said to be "off-stream") system allows for capacity for 40,000 students across undergrad/grad. Across engineering + CS, that's ~15,000 students - Source

If there are 50 people on a programme and someone sets up a club, maybe 5 to 10 will show up.

  • With a bigger cohort to draw from is it easier for societies and clubs to gain momentum?
  • With more people, do you get clubs that go deeper into specific niches? These are the standard agglomeration benefits that urbanists and economists attribute to large dense cities.

An example of a club for makers at Waterloo: Socratica

Other notable things

  • Velocity is a startup accelerator on the university campus. They have funded over 400 companies and have a 90,000-square-foot facility.
  • The Perimeter Institute is up the road.

Links

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